Transformative Travels and Profound What-Ifs with Joel David Bond

Welcome to Life Changing Challengers, the podcast where passion meets purpose. I'm Brad Minas, your host, guiding you through stories of transformation and triumph from endurance feats to overcoming adversity. Our guests defy the limits and inspire action. Ready to ignite your desire and incinerate your barriers? Join us. Your journey to the extraordinary begins now.

Alright. And welcome back to Life Changing Challengers. Again, I'm your host, Brad Minas, and I am super honored today to probably have one of the most interesting episodes with me. I have you're not gonna believe this, ladies and gentlemen, but I have owned Joel David Bond, and he's with us today. He's a speaker. He's an author. He's a traveler.

He's gonna talk to us a little about reverse refugees. But first, how are you doing today, Joel? I'm doing excellent, Brad. Thanks so much for helping me on today. Oh, Bill, we appreciate you being here. And, Joel's in Kansas City right now, but he spends a lot of his time overseas. He's in a True Explorer, and I'm really excited about it.

Can you tell us a little bit about your background, your childhood, the compliment of your family, and the environment you had growing up?

Yeah. So my whole mission in life really is to help people connect across cross cultural boundaries, help you navigate those sorts of, you know, cultural terrain. Growing up, I remember playing make believe with your friends out in the school yard, you know, police fireman, nurse, doctor, whatever it is. I always played explorer. I wanted to be Indiana Jones growing up. My best friend, she lives sort of catty corner behind our house. And, we lived in this developing neighborhood and there are these big boulders at the end of the road that, backed up to this big park Bond there's a ravine there.

Bond it was all sort of under growing up and just thinking this was the end of the world right here. It's the end of our neighborhood being developed. And I always wanted to go and explore and like, let's go play. We called them the dinosaur rocks. Let's go play on the dinosaur rocks. Let's go jump into the ravine. Let's do all, you know, and I just have such fond memories of like, always wanting to see what was around the next corner.

And I think that's just sort of innate built within me. I'm gonna call it genetic. I'll blame my mother for that. I just have these strong memories of growing up and playing, you know, make believe Explorer, you know, Indiana Joel, let's fly off to the moon and be an astronaut or, you know, go and find some lost civilization someplace. And so that really, I think has just been my, my clarion call. My entire life has just been to see what's around the next corner Bond it stuck with me ever since I was a kid. What have you had mother do for a living?

So my mother was a stay at home mom for most of my growing up and then transitioned into being a librarian for a long time. But both of my parents were keen on letting my brothers and I explore and understand the world beyond our own confines. We didn't have a lot of money to travel growing up. We never really went anywhere that I can recall. We've done a few camping trips here in the Midwest. They always wanted to bring the world to our doorstep. We'd go on mom's field trips to the art museum or the local cultural festival, or she made connections just through local churches or organizations with refugees growing up with the Palm.

I didn't know they were refugees. They were just these really cool people that showed up at our house who were from Kenya or El Salvador or wherever. And she just wanted to make sure that we knew that the rest of the world was out there. And so by the time I got to college and was able to sort of travel more extensively on my own was the stage was set now spoiled for life. Mom's field trips had had ruined me. Wow. So my undergraduate was here in the US, just outside of Chicago, but I finished my master's just a few years ago out of the University of Nottingham in the UK.

So nice. Okay. So I'm from Chicago. So you need to tell me where did you go to school?

I went to Wheaton College just outside of Chicago.

Yeah. I grew up in Bartlett. Oh, nice.

Right down the street. See? Small small girl. Right. Agree. You went to Nottingham for business school.

I went to DC. I went to to business school.

You got your master's in international? Very sweet. Yeah. Alright. So MSCD. Right? Yeah. So it was I started with the PGCE, which is a postgraduate certificate in education,

and that it just masters in education, curriculum design, basically.

What did you find in the difference between the education system in Chicago here in the states versus Nottingham?

You know, it's a little bit hard to compare because it's apples for oranges in this regard, because my undergrad versus my masters, having worked alongside British education for a long time, both in high school and primary school levels all the way up through master's degree, it is much more regimented over there in terms of you Bond of get channeled into a particular track, and so that you're much more focused. And a lot of the onus I feel lies more on the student rather than the teacher. As a student, the responsibility to learn is on you. And I feel here in the US, we tend to spoonfeed our students a bit more than what happens over there in the UK. Well, that's super interesting.

I happen to follow a couple of people. The biggest thing with Turning Point USA right now is they're like, Hey, you know, college is a scam. Mhmm. You can learn more just by reading books and getting out into the world and doing all this stuff. Exactly what you're saying is you're getting all this stuff for all this money. And what you're basically stating sounds excellent to me as far as being, you know, me with the rest of the world. So I got a better idea how to actually get an education versus basically Disneyland.

Yeah. I mean, British education, the education system in the UK is actually one of their biggest exports in terms of, like, commodity, you know, in quotes. And so bring, you know, foreign students coming into the UK, as well as, you know, programs like Pearson, Cambridge International, etcetera, you know, export their curriculum and their system around the world to all these international schools, which is actually how I got into teaching was through Cambridge International Bond, and British International School schooling. So yeah, I mean, I found in general, the system over there is very systematic, the Brits in general, having naturalized as a British citizen myself, like I understand, you know, from the inside, you know, it's very much of a organizational system where like their structures, like the routines, which appeals to my nature. I think the responsibility for education for learning really does lie a lot more on the student over there. There's this sort of sense that students need to do their own research in order to come to their conclusions.

That's because it's St. John's. It's over on the East Coast where and one of these colleges basically is every year you're given a 100 books. Oh, wow.

And, I mean, that's just the curriculum. Yep. You're all 4 years. Freshman, sophomore, junior, senior, you're given a 100 books. And at the end of the year, you're given a written test, and then you have to defend it. You've gotta defend it. Yeah. And you have to go up for orals.

And they literally the professors will give you questions theoretical, not David you read the book. Yes. The theoretical side is what you learned. Yeah. And I always thought that that was fascinating. Yeah. And I couldn't go up on tangent.

You and I could talk about education forever. So let's move on. So you graduate from Nottingham. Mhmm. And then what happens?

My graduation from Nottingham back in 2022 was when I actually finished the degree. Prior to that, I lived in the UK for 12 years. And, worked in outdoor education, working with students and developing them in in outdoor settings, doing group dynamics and socialization games, that sort of thing. And, left that after about 7 years and ended up finding a position in traditional education in British schooling, but at a British international school in Iraq. And so that's in 2016, I moved over to Northern Iraq and the Kurdistan region. It was about an hour from the border with Iran and spent 7 years working in education over there, helping rebuild in a post conflict society, basically. And that was a phenomenal experience that lasted all the way up until this last October.

Just absolutely loved living in the middle east, loved living in Iraq, followed up the people were the incredibly warm, welcoming, hospitable people I'd ever met in the world. And, yeah, phenomenal time there.

I was called back to the military in 2003 for an advanced party to Iraq and Afghanistan. So over here at Central Command in Florida. So, yeah, the people are pretty amazing if they're, you know, not extremist.

Yeah. What I found when I first moved over there, I mean, ISIS was still active in 2016. They're on their way out, but they were still active in parts of the country. And I remember taking this position almost on a lark. Like I hadn't really thought about what was happening in that part of the world. I was just like, it's just like a good job. Bond I had the spirit of adventure, you know, I've got this Indiana zone side of me.

That's like, let's go and do this. Right. But I also had this, you know, sort of fear and trembling in me as well. That was like, oh my goodness. Like, where am I going? I get myself into, and I had to kind of step back for a moment and tell myself that, you know, what's happening on the news is only a fraction of reality. You know, it's real.

The news is real. That stuff happens, but it's 1% of, you know, out of the 100% of things that are happening on a daily level. And when I first got this position, it was in a city called Soleimani that I'd never heard of. And there's 2,000,000 people that live around the region of Sleimani there. And I said to my mother, when I, you know, cause she of course was, you know, aghast, she's like, oh my gosh, where are you moving? And I said, well, mom, have you ever heard of the city? And she's like, well, no. And I'm like, that's because nothing happens there.

There's 2,000,000 people get up and take their kids to school and go visit grandma and buy milk from the supermarket and watch the football game and go to work and do all the things that you and I would do. It just so happens to be in a part of the world that has bad press most of the time. By the same logic, I'd never moved back to America because of protests and violence and racism and everything else that happens in politics and society and, you know, gun control and whatever else. So, you know, if you're just looking at the news, you know, America's a terrible place, you know? Yeah. So some people like to get as a terrible place either way, but I mean, you know, you have to sort of take it with the good, with the bad Bond recognize that yes, the news is a part of daily reality, but it's only one small percentage of it. And that there's so much of your daily life that revolves around the good things.

And that's probably why there's the opinion of a lot of people about America right now, which is negative. It's just because all they're getting is the news. Right? Yeah. But you went to Wheaton College. Right. Right? Nothing happens freaking Wheaton and Carol Stream, Glenn Allen, Bartlett.

You know, nothing happens over there. You know? If something happens, it's huge. Right? And it's probably the same way in the city that you can pronounce that I can't in Iraq. So I I I get it. And, you know, that's the same as I grew up I I think I'm a little bit older than you, but I grew up and there was, like, there was, like, 5 channels, 2, 5, 7, 9, 11, and 32.

Those are the only channels we Brad, and news came on at 5, 6, and 10, and that was it. But now with CNN Bond all these different outlets panels, everything. Yeah. Right. You get bombarded with all this information. So I can, you know and people don't

seem to understand that you're getting bombarded with the 1%. Yeah. Yeah. You are just being bombarded left right and center all the time. And I genuinely feel like the human spirit isn't designed to withstand that kind of weight of the world. We're designed to live in smaller communities, socially, anthropologically speaking, we're designed to live in smaller groups of 150 people plus.

That's like your network, right? And here we are bearing the weight of 8,000,000,000 people on the nightly news every night. We're not evolutionarily designed to do that. A part of me, yes, it's good to keep up with what's happening in the world, but you don't have that empathic energy to expend for everybody. That bandwidth just doesn't exist. And so it's learning to balance the, that bandwidth within the community where you can serve, where you can actually make a difference. Also recognizing that your communities do have impact on other communities around the world.

You have no impact on that you can directly influence. And so for me, it's balancing, you know, what do you know and what can you bring into your world? But also how can you focus your energy and your empathy and your resource to actually make a difference in your immediate community? That's powerful.

You had said that you went to Iraq after you finished your undergrad. Well, no. You went to the UK. Yes. And you did some teaching. Yep. And Bond then when did you end up going to Iraq? In 2016. Alright. 2016. Yeah. 20/16. And then you just said that you just finished in 2022?

Yeah. So just last October in 2023, I was asked to evacuate from Iraq by the United States state department that ended my life there very quickly. I had 24 hours to leave and had basically 7 years of my life that got packed up and shipped out right away. Okay.

So that was, the deals of October 7th 22 in 2023. Yeah. Actually. And it got you out of there. But you had a break.

There was a break. That break is that year of the world that we shall not name, plus 2020 where I decided I was going to take a spring break vacation. Actually, I was just going to be gone for a week. So March of 2020, I'm in Iraq and I'm midway through my master's degree, finishing up my paper there and sort of doing distance learning Bond that point. And, doing Skype calls with my supervisor up, up in the UK Bond, decided it was time to sort of just downshift a little bit for all the great things that I can say about Iraq Bond how much I loved living there. It is an intense place to live. And so I said, let's go someplace kind of a little bit off grid downshift for a week Bond like, just regather before I come back and finish off this degree and finish off the academic year and, you know, see where we go from there.

So I flew off to this lesser touristed Greek island, just off the coast of Turkey, actually. And, the day I arrived, I wouldn't just buy carry on bag thinking I'd be there for a week, right? In a Villa by the seaside, it was a civil resort with very limited internet access. And I'm like, this sounds great. Perfect retreat, just like downshift, you know, Bond of go off grid a little bit, do some outdoor sports and activities, mountain climbing, sea kayaking, whatever. And the day I arrived on the island, the world health organization used the words global pandemic and the dominoes fell immediately. Borders were shut Bond what was going to be a 1 week vacation on out of this Greek island dragged on into 5 months. Wow. Of course at the time, nobody knew it was going to be that long.

It was just another 2 weeks. We're going to quarantine another 2 weeks Bond it just dragged on. I, of course, don't speak Greek. I'd never been to this Greek island before.

Didn't know anybody. I'd just gone by myself, totally isolated on this little mini retreat, somewhat off grid, and ended up just alone. And I was the only guest in this Villa for 4 out of the 5 months that I was there. And the owner may he rest in peace is a great man. He was so friendly. It was just like, I can't, you know, I can't charge you full price act of God. Like just pay me monthly rent.

Here's the key to the lottery room. Take care of yourself.

Just don't give me COVID. I was like, okay. So I basically was Bond of left my own devices. And would walk to and from town every day. It was about a 5 mile walk one way to the town, to the one little tiny corner mini market where I would load up my backpack with bread and peanut butter and walk 5 miles back every day. I lost a lot of weight. I spent a lot of time just Bond of video journaling and sitting by the sea and do a lot of reading, a lot of introspective time, really.

And it was about 2 months into the entire experience as local restrictions started to lift. International borders were still closed, but locally on the Greek islands, things were starting to lift. And so I was able to go across the island. I was told to discover that there's a refugee camp on the far side of the island that was filled with all these refugees from Iraq and Syria, Afghanistan, Iran, all these places here. I'm a man from the west caught in Greece, trying to get back to my adopted home in the middle east who ends up volunteering to teach English to these refugees who were caught in Greece, trying to get to the west. Ended up changing each other's lives immensely. I learned so much about the global migrant crisis, about what it is to be a refugee about the whole underworld of trading people smuggling, as well as some of the root causes what's causing migration on this scale.

And then of course was able to give a voice, a literal voice in English to a lot of these refugees who are seeking asylum onward in Europe. So it really was a phenomenal experience I wish to never repeat.

So with all that time in Iraq, I know you were teaching English, but were you did you also learn some Arabic or I I you know, there's so many dialects. I can't remember what what what they were speaking over there. It wasn't Farsi.

So the area where I live, the main dialect of Kurdish was Surahari. Yeah. So a lot of Kurdish shops. So I did pick up. I tell tell people I know enough to get into trouble, just not out of it. And, so I managed to be conversational on a basic level. Most of my daily workings were in English.

Students, so everything was taught in English. The school was, operated in English. So I really had limited scope to learn and to practice, but I made some headway and I'm really pleased with what I

was able to accomplish on that. David, were you able to communicate enough there? Did, were they speaking Serani too, or did they all have different dialects?

They had mostly different dialects. So I remember I had 2 students under this vignette actually appears in my book, but it was one of the most shocking sort of moments in my whole experience. I had 2 students who were from Syria and they spoke Kurmanji that alternate dialect, really that there's kind of 2 main dialects of Kurdish and Kurmanji is the more widely spoken one. Bond there's enough similarities that I was able to make connections, you know, in basic vocabulary. But I remember, you know, these 2 young boys are living in this refugee camp. They were teenagers, not even 20. And the conditions in this camp on the island were so terrible that one night they were brought it back.

They were brought back, by the coast guard because they had been caught, trying to swim back to Turkey. So they'd paid 1,000 of dollars to be smuggled across the Aegean sea into Greece, ended up in this refugee camp, and the conditions were such that they thought, well, it's, you know, it's better if we just go anywhere but here. ' And I think the implication was, you know, we could swim back to Turkey. It was about a mile at its narrowest point to Turkey, which is a mile through open water, you know, deep water. It's not particularly an easy swim to be greeted by mountains on the other side in the wilderness of Turkey. But I think the implication really was, it'd be better to sleep at the bottom of the sea than it would be to stay in the refugee camp. Oh, thankfully, both those boys are alive and well, and they have gained asylum and have been relocated into Europe.

Now they're prospering. I'm connected with them on social media. And so I see them now Bond again, doing really well, but some of the stories of those students and their lives and how they got to where they were and what they were escaping from just ripped my heart to shreds.

So can you share some of that? I'd I would be very interested to and I'm sure a lot of people would be interested in about you know, we're Bond of privileged here in America. So, you know, I don't think anybody really understands what you were talking about as far as the underground and the migrant issues that are going Bond, and especially when you say that this camp was dire. I don't know if we can actually picture that. So if you can bring a picture to that, I think it would help a lot.

So I guess that maybe the best way to describe it would be to kind of walk you through what a lot of these refugees went through. Because I interviewed quite a few of them for my book, and I just also overheard their stories on a day to day level. But, you know, you have a lot of these places where politically the systems are just crumbling and there's no real hope for a lot of, particularly the younger generation. So I'm going to focus on Iraq in particular. There's a really large youth boom. So the younger generation, sort of 30 and below are just this massive growing population there. And the infrastructure of the country just isn't such that it's going to support that kind of a workforce.

Basically there isn't enough industry. There's not enough jobs basically. And so a lot of these young people find themselves without any prospects for a future, without any sense of hope. And so there's this constant yearning to go someplace where they might be able to make a living, where they'd be able to do something worthwhile, find meaning with their lives. And surprisingly, a lot of the refugees that have come across the asylum seekers were very highly trained. Doctors, lawyers, politicians, engineers, these are not the untrained, unskilled, uneducated. Now that does exist in the refugee population, but a lot of them had been through university, had high level positions in politics or in society, and for whatever reason, life was untenable.

They held opposing ideologies to the pat, to the party and power, or they were in a country where homosexuality wasn't allowed or where, political religious beliefs didn't align with the culture at large, whatever it is, plenty of people Brad found themselves where they were unable to sail their home country. The first step that a lot of people do is they get a visa to Turkey. If you're an international migrant, Turkey is your gateway. Because it's relatively they've got relatively lax immigration laws. That's fairly easy to get a tourist visa based Bond once you're in the country, you can disappear on the countryside. A lot of them will find themselves in the tourist visa into Turkey and then disappear in the Megapolis of Istanbul. There's actually boarding houses all throughout the city where these migrants and these refugees asylum seekers who are wanting to go on over to Europe will stay in these makeshift hostels for months on end, waiting for the right opportunity, the right smuggler, the right price to get out and into Europe.

And so, you know, you find these houses where they have 30, 40, 50 people crammed into a 2 bedroom house, just bunk beds everywhere. And you live unable to work, unable to sort of, you know, you've maybe cash Bond hand if you get a job someplace, but for the most part, you're trying to keep secret and out of society, out of the light of society there. And there's certain cafes where you can meet up with smugglers Bond the smugglers will broker a deal with boat drivers and times and places and beaches and locations or truck drivers Bond places where you can hop on and be smuggled across. It'll charge upwards of $8,000 per person.

Bond we're talking to USD equivalent to USD, $1,000

What happens then is once you've paid your money, you deposit half of the funds usually at a Western Union or some money, you know, money teller of that variety. And anybody who's transferred money internationally through one of those services, you're given a long string of numbers, an alphanumeric code, where you take that number and you rip it in half Bond you give one half of that code to your smuggler who's brokering this whole deal with a, and you keep the other half. And when you arrive safely Bond the other end, then you communicate the other half of that number so they can collect their money. So this is the whole guarantee kind of insurance policy that's put out there is just this alpha numeric string of numbers from the Western union. So the smuggler will basically give you a time and a date Bond they'll often, you know, if they're a quote unquote, good smuggler will pick you up in a Minus bus and drive you down the coast somewhere to deserted beach, in, on the coast of Turkey, point you to the beach, say walk 1 mile that way. And you'll find our guy with his boat there. And, you'll load up in the middle of the night and head out to sea.

And the problem is that, you know, they bring in these boats that are, you know, basically designed for, you know, 10 or 12 passengers and will cram up to a 100 people on these A 100 people, men, women, children, no life vests, you know, out to the middle of the night. And the reality is as well that the drivers of these boats are often the ones who aren't able to raise the funds to pay for their passage. And so they pay for their passage by being the boat driver. Well, if you're from the middle of the desert Bond on board a province Iraq, you've never been in a boat that is in a drive across the open sea. So you're given 5 minute training Bond here's how the boat works. And then you're in charge of a 100 men, women and children driving across the Aegean sea towards the Greek islands, praying to God that you don't get, you know, picked up by CoStar or pushed back or hit a reef someplace and all, and drown. And I think it was last year, or 2 years ago, just to Italy alone, there were 3,000 deaths of migrants on these boats that were crossing.

And it was in the order of a 150 +1000 immigrants to Italy alone. You know, Greece, where I was, the island that I was stuck on, I was working with a refugee hotspot that was designed. The reception center was designed to hold 600 people. There were 6,000 people living in this camp.

And the this and to put this into perspective, so you had said that back to Turkey from where your island was, it was like a mile. Yeah. So, basically, you've got people that are paying $8,000. Mhmm. You get down to the beach onto a dinghy, 1 mile Yeah.

Just 1600 meters Yep. To the other side.

Now the problem is $8,000. $8,000 for a one mile boat ride. Now the problem is they have to do it in the middle of the night.

It's all secretive. They've got no visas Bond because they're all inexperienced, they don't know the waters, they don't know the train, they don't know where they're going. That 1 mile boat ride often takes days. One of my students, they left in the middle of the night and they were gonna take this, you know, boat right across to the island. They thought they could make out the lights of the island on the horizon, got turned around the waves, the currents, whatever it was, they were 8 hours, 8 hours on the water circling around through these little tiny islands. And normally by daybreak that would have been picked up by the coast guard, but fortunately, or unfortunately, depending on which side of the story you would like to fall Bond, the coast guard were busy fighting a forest fire that was building up on the mountain. And so they crash land with their boat on this sort of picnic beach on the island, and there's all these families on a Sunday morning out there, Greek families having Sunday morning picnic, and this boat full of refugees, all tumble out of the water, like bedraggled cats coming up on the shore, burkas and children and crying babies and everything.

Bond, you know, of course they called the authorities and authorities came and rounded them up and then took them in for processing at the reception center. It's a terrible problem. It's a terrible problem. No matter which way you cut it, 1% of the world's population is displaced due to conflict. So we're talking entire nations worth of people that are displaced and find themselves in this process. And a lot of my students, some of my students had been on the run and through the asylum seeking process, I'm caught in the bureaucracy of it for upwards of 7 years. Oh, geez.

Yeah. I've heard that there I mean, at least here, I know that going the right way Mhmm.

To seek asylum Yeah. Then go through the paperwork and the bureaucracy could definitely at 10 years, a running coach broke multiple records Bond then and basically said it took him from and he was from Israel. And, basically, it took him 10 years from the time he stepped Bond to the United States to the point where he got his citizenship. Yeah. That might be actually fast compared to these other countries.

Just real quick. I have a question that kept popped up was, so you had mentioned that it could be good or it could be bad. So what would happen if one of these boats got rescued by the coast guard? So there's

a lot of debate as to what the Frontex, which is the European coast guard administration body there. There's a lot of debate as to whether or not they're doing good or evil. There have been reports, technically they're supposed to patrol the waters, and if there are boats of refugees and migrants, so they're meant to basically provide assistance and guide them in towards that asylum hot point there. There have been reports that a lot of them are being pushed back, and so they're basically being turned around and head back to Turkey. And it's really a catch 22 because Bond one hand, these people are genuinely looking for a better life. They're coming from situations that their lives are maybe in peril back at home, and they're willing to put their lives in further peril to escape the situation they're living in. And And so there's a level of empathy where it's like, what you'd love to be able to provide these people a decent life, right?

The opportunity that you feel that they should have. But at the same time, you also need to be mindful of your own citizenry and your own political systems Bond structures that are in place Bond the amount of resources that you have to provide for immigrants. And so there's this kind of, you know, do you push back, do you bring in, how do you process? And when the flood gates just keep coming, because Turkey more or less just basically says There's the shore go, you know, they're trying to figure out a way to use the pressure valve on their own country. When the policies would be change your visa policy that might help, but all of these issues are so interrelated and so interconnected that one little change right here might have a knock on effect in other ways that you can't foresee or you don't know. It really is just sort of this really complex and terrible situation, but you have so much empathy. At least I do now, having seen the conditions inside these caps, having worked with a lot of these students, having heard a lot of their stories, and then having lived for 7 years in a part of the world that has generated more migrants than any other places in the world.

And just seeing what I can do to not just help on the, the resettlement end of things. Cause I think we need to do that more. The U S only takes, I th I think the statistic is we take 1% of that 1%. Yeah. So if 1% of the world's population is classed as refugees, the us will admit other quota, 1% of that. So, you know, we're taking a very small percentage of those refugees into our country. And I think we need to provide services.

You know, I think there's a duty of care that we should need to provide to those that do come in Bond there's avenues and ways to do that, obviously. But I also think we need to be taking a look at the origin point. Like where are these refugees coming from Bond what kind of foreign aid and assistance can we provide that will help stem that flow that will actually empower local populations to make those sorts of choices of self governance in a way that they feel they have a future and they have the hope. Because right now what we're doing militarily is we're coming in and we're creating chaos, trying to impose democracy on cultures that don't particularly want it because we think it's the right way. We're imposing our viewpoint basically on the rest of the world. And while democracy has its pros and its cons, it doesn't necessarily, it's not a fit all for everybody. It's not a one size fits all.

And I think what's happening is we go in with our military, but we're not going in with our soft power as much as we could. And I think it's the former secretary of state, Anthony Blinken, I think under Trump, he said something along the lines of, if you are not going to fully fund the state department, then I'm going to need more ammunition. The implication being, if you're not willing to invest in foreign aid and foreign development, then we need to beef up national security. And if we could just change the tip of those balance in favor of adding more towards foreign aid and foreign development, we'd have to worry so much less about national security because we're actually doing good rather than building walls. Bond I

like that idea a lot better. I'd rather not displace people and having them have to migrate away from, you know, regimes that are not necessarily for their citizens. I would rather that sounds to me like a a much better investment for us than for us to open up our floodgates and Yeah. You know, end up taking care of migrants more than we take care of our own citizens. Yeah. I think there's gotta be a spot. There's gotta be a time when we have to take care of our own. Mhmm. I think you're right.

I think it'd be cheap.

Yeah. I mean, it's it's a slow burn investment. Like, the immediate investment is more guns, more walls, more whatever. Like that gives you an immediate picture result. Right? Like you can build a wall, you can build build more guns. You're like, okay, problem solved, quote unquote.

All you're doing is you're creating more resentment. You're creating more difficulty. You're not solving the problem. You're just curing the symptom. And so the long solution, the long haul, the slow burn option really is to invest more in foreign David, foreign development, and understanding how these cultures Bond these other places can develop in those systems of self governance so that there's not this constant outpouring of refugees. Yeah. I agree.

If we can, but I I see your point. We can do something now militarily where it's more of a long game like you stated. Right? The only thing that we know and what we've grown up on is republic you know, is a democratic republic. So how do you think that we would be able to help these other governments that are not necessarily a democratic republic?

Like, I mean, you've got a monarchy Bond that king is good for the you know? Let's say Saddam Hussein was actually a good person and actually literally wanted good for his people. Mhmm. We wouldn't think twice. Right? There's no reason for us to topple a regime that actually works. Yeah. How do you think that we could go about that as far as, you know, us helping out a different type of government that we're not necessarily educated on?

No. I mean, that's the $1,000,000 question, right? And if we had answers to that, then we, you know, you and I both would be millionaires. Like one thing that I have found that has really inspired me has been through education. And so as part of my, master's dissertation while I was in Iraq is I actually developed a service learning initiative for my senior year students. So here I am at this private international school. I've got the, you know, nieces and nephews of the prime minister, basically in my class, you know, these are the wealthy business owners, the politicians, this is the top 1%, right?

Of the city that are attending my school. And for their senior capstone project, I required all my students to do, to engage in 12 hours of volunteer service over the course of the year. And they had to Brad a number of articles written by former philanthropists, Peace Corps, volunteers, etcetera, and then engage in 12 hours of volunteer service over the course of the year, and then write their own journal reflections that sort of mirrored what they were learning and what they were reading. And the final sort of capstone of that was I would take the students into one of the local IDP camps, internally displaced persons, which are basically refugees within their own country. And there was a camp that was just about 45 minutes outside of the town where we lived, and I would take my students there Bond we'd take deliveries of clothing and toys and, and go into the tents with the families and drink tea with them and have conversations and find out what it's like to live as the other 1%, the marginalized 1%. And so here I am bringing in this potential leadership for the next generation to meet with the marginalized 1% that are hoping they can find anything of, of value in the future. The hope was one that I was able to provide some assistance to the refugees in the camp, through the donations that we brought, but more so that I would be able to influence these young people who were going to be the next leaders of the country, the next business owners, the next politicians, that when they find themselves creating a new, you know, business policy or writing a law into existence, that they might have a reflex and think, how might this affect those who are less fortunate than me?

And what I found in the long run after doing the study over the course of 3 to 4 years, I ran the program is that number 1, all of the students remember that experience immensely. It was just an incredible memory for them. Very formative. Bond, most of them came out of it either doing more volunteer service on their own or desiring to do more and found themselves in a far more reflective state. Most of them had taken up journaling, had better time management skills, better self vision of leadership. It was the things that they reported that having learned from that experience was really phenomenal. And I think that kind of scenario, that kind of space within education, I think really is a promising way to help rebuild in a post conflict society in a way that would be more in line with the cultures that you're working in.

As you can bring people together Bond people want to connect. We're naturally empathic people. It's a muscle that you have to exercise, but we are naturally empathic. We have this desire to connect with other people. And if you can bring people across those boundary lines across those socio ethnic religious lines to at least see that these people are not that different from me. They still are going to go visit grandma. They're still going to take their kids to school.

They're still going to wake up and buy milk from the supermarket. Right. Same as in Iraq as they are in Chicago. Once you can recognize that and see those universal fundamentals, now you have a conversation where you can work with and help build systems that work with those people rather than from your imposed ideas on them.

See, that right there is probably the most that is the most powerful thing that I've heard in any one of my episodes so far. It's such it's probably the most specific and a real winner when it comes to what people can actually accomplish. Right? You need to start with the people. Yeah. And move our way up into the government where we're trying to work with the government and filter down to the people. Mhmm. And it seems like, you Joel lot of the governments just don't have their citizens and as priorities.

And that's pretty much what needs to change. So with all of this that you've learned, you have a, you have a business yourself. Can you tell us a little bit more about that?

Yeah. So I do public speaking and I'm a writer and a teacher as well. And so, I do talks, locally here on Kansas city. My most recent, talk has been actually about my experience hiking the Camino in Spain this last year Bond pairing the lessons that I learned from that with my evacuation from Iraq. So it's a Bond of a kick in the gut kind of has an emotional climax on that talk there. It's an inspirational being able to view your life with purpose and meaning and how to draw all those lessons out from life. But I do talks like that, and I have a book out in the world.

My book is As Large as Your Spirit, A Reverse Refugee Memoir by Joel David Bond. That is available on Amazon, and, it's on Kindle, hardback Bond paperback. Also, my website, Joel David Bond has more of my work, some of my writings, as well as my public speaking.

So, yeah. So I will definitely be linking your book in the show notes along with your your website, which is Joel David Bond dot com. So here's my question. This is kinda where I thought about it because as I was going through your website, and I just found where I found it before. This is where my question came from. I'm Joel David Bond, and I specialize in creating experiences for both cross cultural understanding and empathic connection. Mhmm. That right there, I guess that's my question because you've got right there, then you got to contact me.

So how do you do you is there actually something that you do where that specific, like, do you create, like, trips or retreats or something that create that cross cultural understanding? Is that something that you do or something that you're looking at doing? Or

so I have done in the past private tours for people, internationally. So I've taken people through the UK, Norway, Germany, Denmark, Poland, Czech Republic, Kurdistan, Iraq, Turkey. So I've taken people around through Europe and the Middle East and helped connect them with locals in those places. So having meals with families, staying with local families, and then also doing all the tourist things and seeing the sites. That's kind of immersive experience to help people engage with those cultures and learn more about what it's like to live in these places. So that is one side of what I have done. That is still something that I'm willing to do that I'm able to do.

It's just very kind of on a very small scale. So if there are any listeners that are interested, please do reach out. I'd love to to make something for you.

Yeah. I might be joining you myself because I would definitely like to know more. And I think that if you're up for it, hopefully, that we can actually put you on here and have a couple episodes throughout the next couple years or whatever and talk about different areas that you've been to just basically getting that you've been through all these other places too. Definitely wanna talk to you about the Camino trip as well. I have one client that actually did finish it. Mhmm. And I have another client that's supposed to be on their way in the next month. Yeah. Oh, that would be definitely an interesting, hopefully, that we'll be able to speak again.

We seem to have a good connection, so I would love that. But I really needed to get more into this one. We needed to talk about the the reverse refugees because I think that really opens up a lot of people's minds. Yeah. First of all, if you're in America, don't take the privilege for granted. You might use it as a dirty word, but it's not. Yeah. Think about this.

I mean, when you talk about doctors and lawyers and these people that are, like, paying $8,000 to go a mile so they can get out of a reg a regime that is not necessarily in their best interest. Mhmm. I mean, these are highly educated people.

Yeah. This is Who end up living who end up living in slums, essentially, and migrating to countries where they don't speak the language and the best work they can find is janitorial.

Yes. See, Yeah.

Something's gotta be done about that. Yeah. So Pretty Brad. Yeah. I almost can't even fathom it. I mean, I've been out in the boonies, and I've been out, you know, on bivouac, and I I've been through where you've been through. Well, meant not as north, more south, but still I can't.

You know what I mean? As a regular basis. I was there 2, 3 weeks, 3 months at a time. That was it.

And I'm back. Right? Yeah. But anybody could do that for a couple months. But when you're talking about the

rest of your life, Finding yourself just completely uprooted. And I think that's part of why I have such an empathic understanding of what the refugee experience is because, you know, I found myself kind of in the circus mirror reflection of being a refugee myself. Now, here I am caught on this Greek island for 5 months, albeit in this very privileged, you know, sort of Villa by the seaside, you know, where I've got this, you know, struck a bargain with the owner basically, but I'm isolated, I'm alone. I've lost everything that I know I can't get back to my loved ones. I think I may have accidentally moved to Greece at this point because everything's closed and I can't, you know, I'm going to lose money. I can't make my way back. In the absence of being gone, I actually lost my house in Iraq.

It was sold out from underneath me and I had to have a friend move my stuff out for me in my absence. I mean, there was all this dramatic chaos around it. And so I totally get on an emotional level what these refugees are going through because that's the same. It's that human connection. That's a universal connection. And while I may not be in that same situation, I'm not living in a tent, a hillside outside of a Greek village all the time. I know what it's like to lose everything, I can't communicate with anybody here.

Is last question I have, and and this just came up randomly is I wanted to ask you about it earlier, but those IDPs that you were talking about that you've been to, were most of them like the one in Greece, or were there some of them that were decent at least for people, or they all seem to be the same?

The IDP camp that I would take my students to in Iraq made the refugee camp in Greece. I mean, that was the Yeah. The IDB camp in Iraq, it looks like the Hilton by comparison. Oh, man. Yeah. I mean, it's still basic. Yeah. Yeah. You're living under Minus.

You're on a concrete pad with a shared toilet block around the corner down these dirt patterns. But by comparison, that is the height of luxury to what

I saw in Greece. I can't even imagine. Just horrible. That if that does not hit your heartstrings and make your mind just kind of, like, blow. I mean, I'm just I'm I mean, it's blow I'm blown away just by the thought of this is what goes on the other side of the world. Yeah. You know, just a picture of it is it it it's mind blowing.

It's just absolutely mind blowing. I can't even I can't imagine that people actually live this way. And they're living this way on purpose. Yeah. So because there's no one More

or less. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. So well, listen. Thank you. Thank you for opening up our minds. Thank you. Thank you for showing us and giving us a picture of of what else is out there and helping us to learn not to take what we have right now for granted. Right? But I want everybody to go into the show notes and find Joel's website.

Contact him if you wanna talk to him. Are you active on the

Instagram, Facebook, and LinkedIn. LinkedIn? Okay. And I have those Joel David Bond everywhere.

Great. And I will go ahead and link those as well. Yes. Thank you.

Thank you very much. If you have any words of wisdom that you'd like to exit out with.

I think the thing that I've been learning recently is we often hear about these really dramatic things and we're faced with these life choices, right? You're faced with a choice Bond we often approach those choices with the negative. What if it goes wrong? What if it's terrible? What if I lose my life? What if I lose my money? What if I lose my family?

What if, I think in those moments of fear, we often forget to look at the positive what ifs. What if it's amazing? What if you love it? What if you meet the people that will change your life for the better for here on out? It's that concept of trying to bring in more of the positive one ifs. And so if you, as a listener out there are being faced with a challenge and you're at a crossroads Bond you're sat there asking yourself the, what if questions for the negatives, flip the tables and ask yourself a couple of positive what ifs, because you might just find yourself heading down a path that's incredibly life changing for the better. That's fantastic.

A positive what ifs people. Hey, you can you can write another book?

That's the title. That's a positive

what ifs. That is a

good one. I am working on my second book.

Yeah. No. That's a great for good title.

I love it. So, anyway, thank you. Thank you so much, Joel. And, for the rest of you out there, you know, those positives what ifs, that's what we need. Right? So, anyway, for Joel and myself, thank you very much, and we'll see you in the next one.

Well, that wraps up another episode of Life Changing Challengers. I'm your host, Brad Minas, saying thank you for joining us on this journey of transformation. If today's stories inspired you, please take a moment to review, share, and follow us on your favorite podcast platform. Your support helps us reach more listeners and creating an even bigger impact. Remember, every challenge is a chance to grow. Until next time, keep pushing, keep challenging, and never stop pursuing your extraordinary.