Overcoming the Impossible: Ken Kunken’s Journey from Injury to Impact

Brad Minus: [00:00:00] And we're back with another episode of Life-Changing Challengers. I'm Brad Minus your host as always. And today I am super lucky to have the motivator of motivators, the, hero of his own story and ours, Ken Kunken. Hey, Ken, how you doing today? 

Ken Kunken: I'm doing great. Thank you for having me 

Brad Minus: I am very honored and privileged to have you on the show. So as you can see, Ken had an accident or right after his university, he ended up, having a spinal cord injury. It's at C4, C5, and we're going to get into the actual story of it and how he went through it. But now Ken is an author of I Dream of Things that Never Were the Ken Kunken Story.

So I am, very excited to have him talk about that. But of course, we're going to start where we always start. Ken, can you tell us a little about your childhood? You know, like, Maybe what was the compliment of your family, where you grew up, and what was it like to be Ken as a kid? [00:01:00] 

Ken Kunken: Well, I guess I had a bit of an unusual childhood, and in fact I started facing challenges almost from the day I was born.

My mother died when I was less than a month old. It was in 1950, it was during the polio epidemic, and very shortly after I was born my mother contacted polio and died, unfortunately. In fact, at that time, my brother, Steve, who's two years older than me, had polio as well, but his fortunately seemed to be a mild case, confined to basically his right leg, and he recovered fully.

But unfortunately, when my mother died, my father, My brother and I, moved in to live with my father's parents, my, paternal grandparents in Limbrook, New York, and they became, in essence, both sets of my grandparents, acted basically as my mother's. So in fact, growing up, we [00:02:00] called my grandparents mom and pop for both sets of grandparents.

We had Limbrook Mom and Limbrook Pop, and my other set of grandparents were Moore Mom and Moore Pop. And so we were initially living with my father's parents. For a few years until I was four when my father married his second wife. Unfortunately it was not a very happy marriage. Although my younger sister Meryl was born for that marriage when I was 10, the marriage didn't last.

And my father. And his second wife were divorced when I was 14. Unfortunately, right around that year, my father's mother died as well. So growing up, I was facing, just a lot of challenges in family life, as a result of the death of my mother, the divorce of my father's second marriage, and then the death of my grandmother, who was like a mother to me.

[00:03:00] But, you know, when I look back at my childhood. I just remember it as a pretty happy childhood. My brother and I were always very close. We grew up as best friends, and we used to participate in just about every sport we could find. We, played Little League football and Little League baseball from the time soon after I could walk.

And, to tell you a little bit more about me, when I was in junior high school in ninth grade, I was the quarterback and captain of our school football team, captain of the school wrestling team, And played on the boys baseball team. 

Brad Minus: There, Ken, you're like, wow. I mean, that, those are, those are the, you know, almost the big three.

If it was, you just need a basketball in there. 

Ken Kunken: Well, that was during wrestling season. 

Brad Minus: So, right, exactly. So, Hey, just, if I could just step back, cause I can actually hear a little bit of an accent. Was this like New York? Was it Boston? 

Ken Kunken: This is Long Island, New York. [00:04:00] 

Brad Minus: Long Island. All right. 

Ken Kunken: I've been told that in addition to my physical disability.

My additional disability is my Long Island accent. 

Brad Minus: That is not a disability. That's, that's, ask your wife. It's probably pretty sexy. Great. So you were, you were like, you were Mr. All Star athlete. Love that. 

Ken Kunken: Thank you. In fact, if people would have asked me to describe my life growing up, I'd first say that I was an athlete.

And second, almost in passing, I would say I also happen to be a pretty good student as well. And as a result, I was fortunate after high school to be admitted to Cornell university, where I was admitted to the college of engineering and I was studying engineering at Cornell. 

Brad Minus: It. That high, high end Ivy league school.

I mean, yeah, that is, that's amazing. 

Ken Kunken: Thank you. So while I was at Cornell during my junior year, I was [00:05:00] playing on their lightweight football team. It was also called the 150 pound team. It's now called sprint football, and it's considered a varsity sport, but it was for individuals that were smaller than the heavyweights.

And during a game against Columbia University, I happened to be in on the kickoff squad, and when I tackled the ball carrier, I broke my neck and damaged my spinal cord. And as a result, I'm paralyzed over most of my body and have been since 1970.

Brad Minus: That's, unfortunate is the only word that I can come up with. I have no idea how that must feel. Just to give a little bit of clarity. So you went to make a tackle, 

Ken Kunken: Just to tell you a little bit more about that. It was on a play that I normally wouldn't have even been in on. I was usually not in on the kickoff squad. On the first play of the game, one of our [00:06:00] players got hurt, got a concussion, and I was put in on the play.

I was injured to take his place. So normally I wouldn't have even been in on that tackle. So, but you actually made the tackle. I made the tackle and they end up head first. I tackled him head first, and unfortunately, I broke my neck and damaged my spinal cord.

And just to tell you one more, kind of unusual aspect about that, at the beginning of that, year for football, just for some reason, I happened to have a premonition that I was going to get hurt that year. I don't know why I had that. I had never had that feeling before, but it was such a strong feeling that I actually verbalized it to my roommate.

At the beginning of the year, I said, I don't know what it is. I just have this feeling I'm going to get hurt this season. And he asked me, what do you mean? I said, I don't know. I just have this feeling. And that's the first tackle I made that year when I [00:07:00] broke my neck. 

Brad Minus: Sorry to hear that. 

So I'm going to say, do you remember any part of that or did you end up making the tackle then woke up in the hospital? 

Ken Kunken: No, I remember all of it. I was conscious the whole time. Yeah. And you know what it was, I ran down the field and I was able to avoid a blocker who tried to block me. So I had a clear shot at the ball carrier and I shot out at him head first, trying to hit him so hard that it would make him fumble.

And you know, I hit him and he kind of bent over me and then fell backwards. And from what I heard, he got up slowly, but I didn't get up at all. I was conscious the whole time, and it just felt like an electric shock shooting through my body. And I went all numb to below my neck. I lost feeling, you know, in addition to my movement.

I lost sensation below my neck. One of the additional [00:08:00] unusual, feelings that I had after hitting him was when they called for a stretcher and they lifted me up to move me off the field to wait for an ambulance, which, They really shouldn't have done that. They should have waited for the ambulance to arrive.

When they lifted the stretcher up, it felt like they were just carrying my head off the field and left my body behind because I had no feeling below my shoulders at that time.

Brad Minus: So no feeling. So you weren't, were you feeling any pain whatsoever? 

Ken Kunken: Oh, I was feeling pain in my neck. Which gradually got worse and, you know, at the time I felt like my shoulder pads would dig it into my neck as I'm leaning back on the field and, you know, when I asked somebody if they could adjust the shoulder pads, they knew at that point they shouldn't touch me anymore.

And wait till I went to the hospital and I actually had to convince somebody to take out my mouthpiece So I wouldn't choke on it, but [00:09:00] I was conscious that whole time 

 Yeah, I wouldn't wish that on anybody. So you end up going to the hospital and How long is it before? You end up getting the complete diagnosis that this is what it 

Well, I was first taken to a hospital where cornell is And that's where they did x rays on my neck and they saw it was a pretty serious injury and felt they weren't really equipped to handle an injury like mine.

So they put me right back in the ambulance. I mean, first they cut off my uniform in the hospital, put me back in the ambulance, and took me to a hospital in Elmira, New York, about an hour away. And at the time, basically, they didn't tell me much about my injury or what happened. I know at some point I learned that I broke my neck, which I did, but nobody really mentioned the spinal cord injury.

And you know, I was operated on [00:10:00] nine days later to stabilize my neck. And I always thought, well, I'm paralyzed because I broke my neck. And once they fixed the break in my neck, I would be back up on my feet. They never really told me what the ramifications of a spinal cord injury was. 

Or was that something they may have found out when, while they were in surgery? 

I think when they saw me on the field, I was told I was kind of lying in a fetal position after I made the tackle and there was not only the team doctor at the game, there was a doctor who happened to be at the game who was living in Ithaca and a player's father who was a doctor was at the game.

So there were three doctors there and I was told at least one of them realized when he saw me lying in that position. That it was probably a spinal cord injury. So, as I indicated, they probably shouldn't have moved me before the ambulance came. But they did, and I guess they knew, [00:11:00] early on that it was a serious spinal cord injury.

But I was not told that that's crazy. 

So walk me through, I'm about 30, 000 foot view. You don't have to go into to super detail, but let's talk about what went on after the surgeries 

I was in the hospital and rehabilitation center. I went from the hospital in Ithaca to the hospital Elmira for four weeks, then a hospital in Oceanside, my own town, for a few months before I went to the rehab center at the Rusk Institute.

While I was first in the hospital, Elmira, my family had contacted a specialist. to come up from another hospital to look at me and see my condition. He told my family that I probably wouldn't survive the week. And he said that if I were to survive, my life expectancy would probably be between 4 and 9 years, [00:12:00] that I would have no movement, that I would not be able to do anything, and I'd probably end up living that amount of time in a nursing home.

That's what the doctor, the specialist, told my family. And then I spent the next nine months and 20 days in various hospitals and rehabilitation centers. And while I was in the hospital, the doctors didn't seem like they really wanted to answer many of my questions. 

And in the rehab center, the center had published a booklet about spinal cord injuries, and I needed somebody to turn the pages for me so I could. Learn more about my injury they had a page about what kind of movement I might have I now have a little bit of movement in my left arm But nothing in my fingers or my wrist it was very accurate the way it described it for my level of injury Which was between the fourth and fifth cervical in the neck there was another page that described What type of sensation I would [00:13:00] have I now have sensation just a few inches above my shoulder Below my shoulders and up.

I have no sensation below that. And it was very accurate that, pamphlet and it described how it would affect my bodily functions, my bladder and my bowels and my lung capacity and breathing. And that was very accurate. And then they had a page of what type of careers I could eventually pursue, if any.

And the only career I saw for somebody who hurt my level would be to someday sell magazine subscriptions over the telephone. And I was devastated when I saw that. I mean, here I was studying engineering at one of the most prestigious engineering schools in the country. And now it seemed the best I'd ever be able to do would be to sell magazine subscriptions over the telephone.

And the more I thought about it as I'm lying in bed, I was like, well, wait a minute, I can't even dial a telephone. They were rotary telephones at the time, [00:14:00] not even push button phones, and I can't take notes or write anything. I don't even know if I could do that. But I was very fortunate that my family always had high expectations for me and what I could do.

And they kept emphasizing, I still have my mind. And there should still be a lot I can do. And there was one vocational counselor at the rehab center, by the name of Joyce Mesh, who was encouraging me to go back to school. And through my family's encouragement and her help, I decided that I wanted to go back to school.

And just 11 days after I was finally discharged from the hospital, I traveled 250 miles away from my home and family. And with the aid of a personal care attendant that I had met just once before, I returned to the Cornell campus and I resumed my studies at industrial engineering. 

When we talk about mindset. Man, [00:15:00] that is, that is like, that's bulletproof. That is bad ass and bulletproof, Ken. I gotta tell you. Just the aspect of it, because I gotta, I'll be honest with you, just thinking about what you went through and put, and trying, trying, which I know, I'm not, I'm a hundred times less than what you went through trying to put myself in that situation.

I don't know if I could have done it. I'll be straight up. I, I teach, you know, I coach, endurance athletes for, not for a living. It's a side hustle, but I coach endurance athletes. And these are, you know, people that like run a hundred miles and they run marathons and Ironman triathlons and all that.

Right. And we talk about mindset all the time and the idea of suffering and, you know, When we talk about it and what you went through is on totally two different aisles of the spectrum. And when you think about that, I gotta tell you, I don't know if I've got it, I've done five of those Ironmans and, 37 marathons and, a bunch of other things that people think I'm crazy to do.

But even me knowing what [00:16:00] I've accomplished and what I've done, I gotta be straight up and honest with you. I don't know if I could have gone back to school, but I'm glad 

Thank you. And I was very fortunate that my family always encouraged me, to, do as much as I could with my mental ability.

And that they basically assured me that they would act as my arms and legs to make sure I could still do everything that I wanted to do. And one of the messages that I want to give to people is it's so important, firstly, not to lose hope. There's always a lot people can do. Sometimes it's difficult to see what that will be right away.

But there's always a lot people can do. But secondly, to keep your expectations high, because that was terrible that the best people seem to think I'd ever be able to do would be to sell magazine subscriptions over the telephone. And there's nothing wrong with somebody doing that, but I believe there was more I could do and I didn't feel they were encouraging me or the other [00:17:00] patients.

Many of the patients that I met in the rehab center didn't seem to be doing much of anything with their lives and I don't fault them. It was nobody seemed to encourage them or to tell them that they can still do more things. It was almost as if they were meeting people's expectations. By just staying home and I think that was so unfortunate.

Now, unfortunately, when I returned to school, I had the added misfortune of being injured and returning to school 20 years before the Americans with Disabilities Act took effect. So, there was virtually nothing accessible on campus. Cornell's on a very hilly terrain. And almost every one of its building had steps in front of them, and there was not one ramp or curb cut on the entire campus.

One of my classes, which met three times a week, Was in a building that had 16 steps in front of it. And my dorm room was in a building that had [00:18:00] 10 steps just to get in. So on my first day of classes, I had to be either pulled up or bounced down close to 100 steps just to attend my first day. 

Brad Minus: What did that look like?

 So going up 10 steps, are you talking about, cause you said that you had one personal care attendant? 

Ken Kunken: Correct. I couldn't even use my electric wheelchair, obviously. Yeah. You couldn't even cross the street because there were no curb cuts. So I have this one personal care attendants who would have to tilt me back in a manual wheelchair and into a wheelie position and try and pull me up the steps or bounce me down.

There are other students who when they'd see that would try and help. People, the other students really tried to help, but it's still very difficult, to go up and down that many steps and not topple over either backwards or forwards. So it was very difficult for my attendant to help pull me up and bounce me down.

It was very [00:19:00] difficult on me because my neck was very sore and I had to keep my head bent forward, which was still very sore. And it was also pretty scary. Because I knew at any moment I could, fall and flip back and bang my head or fall forward out of the chair it was very difficult by the time I got to class to spend any time even concentrating on what the lectures were.

I was so worried about going up and down all the steps and I didn't have notes. I couldn't take notes either. So I really started question that I must be crazy doing what I was doing, go back at the school so quickly and at Cornell, no less looking back on it. I'm really glad that I did it. And I couldn't have done any of it without a lot of help from my fellow classmates, from my personal care attendants, and from my family and friends.

Brad Minus: So did that routine last the whole time that you were in [00:20:00] Cornell, or did it 

Ken Kunken: really? It sure did. I mean, you know, they didn't put in, Ramps or curb cuts. Let me give you an example of the ramp. I asked the school administration, can you at least put in a ramp to my dorm?

Because then at least I didn't have to go up and down the 10 steps getting in and out of my dorm, a couple of times a day. They weren't trying to be mean or insensitive. They really wanted to help. But they said, if we were to put in a ramp there, we would have to remove two bushes.

And students might protest if we remove the bushes and you know, just bear in mind, students were protesting about everything back then. This was during the Vietnam War. It was during people protesting investments in South Africa. I mean, students were protesting about everything. So when they said that, I kind of understood what they was talking about.

But at the beginning of my second semester, when I was back, we had a fire drill. And [00:21:00] of course, in a fire drill, everybody must evacuate the building. And one of the school administrators asked me the next day how I managed. And I very honestly told him I was able to get out. I had my attendant bounce me down the 10 steps.

But I felt bad because I know I slowed up the other students who were exiting. So wouldn't you know, within two weeks they put in a ramp. That was fine with me still because at least now I had a ramp to use and there was not one person who objected or protested to removing the two bushes, 

Brad Minus: you know, no matter what we say about protesters.

Recently in this day and age, like there's protests again, we're back to the point where everybody's protesting everybody, you know, because this thing goes in cycles, right?

No matter what they're protesting for. I don't see anybody, you know, I don't see anybody protesting the removal of two bushes for somebody that that that needs it. 

Ken Kunken: And let me just say, I know my fellow classmates would have done anything to help me. There [00:22:00] was never a doubt in my mind about that.

And I know the school administrators were trying to be helpful, but they weren't used to dealing with somebody in my condition. At Cornell, obviously, and neither was I. It was basically the blind leading the blind. I mean, here I was, one student, asking for special favors. I felt guilty even asking for them to do these things.

So, times have changed quite a bit since then. I mean, this was more than 50 years ago. What was it like? You know, I was being stared at everywhere I went. It was so unusual to see somebody in my condition. On a college campus, let alone at Cornell. So wherever I went, I was being stared at, which made me even more uncomfortable to, you know, be doing these things and slowing up people getting in and out of buildings.

Brad Minus: I get it. So I, something just kind of crossed my mind and [00:23:00] I, I'm not trying to make light of it or anything else, but did you end up with a, like a bunch of friends inside the engineering department while you were there? I imagine you did. You're, you're not like, Oh, absolutely. 

Ken Kunken: Absolutely. And, you know, at the time I was hurt, I had been in a fraternity, the Sigma Nu fraternity, and the brothers there wanted to be real helpful to me, but the fraternity was not accessible to me, so I really couldn't live there anymore or spend much time there.

I had been on the football team. The football teammates wanted to help me. But of course, they were also in school and also had practice or other activities, so there was only a limited amount that other people could do to help. But I know everybody wanted to help, 

it's kind of an awkward situation. And here I was usually in a manual wheelchair because I couldn't get around in my electric wheelchair. So it's difficult for me to approach others. So it was kind of an awkward situation for everybody, but I know people [00:24:00] wanted to help and I appreciated that. 

Brad Minus: I was just thinking that if you had that, if there was ever a discussion, While you're around your engineering student friends, like, Oh, well, maybe, well, if we tried this, maybe we put a pulley up here, we can just pull them up this way.

I would think that as engineers somewhere, somewhere, you guys would be starting to like roll with this, you know, absolutely, you know, 

Ken Kunken: years later, somebody in engineering tried to develop a splint for me that on my left arm would help me open and close my fingers.

But it never worked very well. I mean, this was many, many years ago, and I tried something where if I shrugged my right shoulder a bit, the left, you know, splint would maybe open and close, but it really didn't work. I had another engineering student try to create a telephone for me that you could operate by voice because they didn't have that back then, and he developed a special telephone where by me [00:25:00] making a noise, it would answer if it rang.

You know, I hang up, but it didn't never work well. And if somebody dropped the tray or something, the phone would go on. And if I talk, then it might actually go off. I mean, it never worked well, but they tried. They really did try to help. But back then it was just such an unusual situation, we really didn't know what could help or what could be done.

But I mean they did, my engineering friend did put carbon paper under their notes to give me a copy of the notes they were taking. So at least I had notes that way and hope they didn't get too smudged by the time. I got to look at them. But that's how I got by, by using carbon copy notes of other people in the classes.

That's 

Brad Minus: well, I'm just glad they were able to help you out. And it just goes to show that, no matter what kind of differences we have with our fellow humans, everybody down deep wants to [00:26:00] help someone else in every single way.

Some people go away from it. Some people aren't taught it. But I think. Down deep, everybody really wants to help. So you ended up graduating and did you enter the job market right away? 

Ken Kunken: No, what happened was in, 1973, one year after my original class that I was in, I missed the one year that I was basically in the hospital.

I completed my junior and senior year during those next two years. And in 1973. I became the first quadriplegic to ever graduate from Cornell University, but you know, I felt back then that engineering just really didn't seem like a viable field for me. And I knew that what I really wanted to do was do something where I could help others, you know, particularly people who may be going through either an injury such as mine or dealing with a life altering illness.

Or just facing adversity in their own lives. So I decided with [00:27:00] the encouragement of my psychology professor, I was taking psychology as an elective. He encouraged me to pursue a career doing counseling as a psychologist. So I ended up, staying at Cornell and earning a master's degree, a Master of Arts degree, where I majored in counseling and student personnel administration, right?

So I got a Master of Arts in that, but I knew that in order for me to get a job, I really needed To further my counseling credentials. So I then went to Columbia university school. I went to Columbia and earned a second master's degree. This one, a master of education degree where I majored in psychological counseling and rehabilitation.

And I decided to look for a job in the rehabilitation counseling field. I was fairly confident back then that now that I had two degrees from Cornell, one from Columbia, prestigious Ivy League schools, two master's [00:28:00] degrees, that I shouldn't have too much difficulty getting a job. Well boy was I wrong.

Nobody would hire me. I looked for a job for a year and sent out more than 200 resumes. Everybody seemed to think back then that I was just too disabled to work. I was even turned down when I offered to volunteer my services. I couldn't even give it. So I looked for a long time until I was finally hired, for a job as a vocational rehabilitation counselor at a facility on Long Island in Albertson, Long Island called Abilities Incorporated, which was part of what was then called the Human Resources Center, is now called the Viscardi Center.

After its founder, Dr. Henry Viscardi jr. And I worked there as a vocational rehabilitation counselor for other individuals who had severe disabilities. 

Brad Minus: Wow. What, makes it [00:29:00] even more amazing is the fact that first of all, you went two years at Cornell. And having to go up steps and come down steps.

And yeah, you got your ramp to go to the dorm, but you still got to get around campus. So you're still going up and down taps. You still got a personal care assistant that's with you. And then you decide to go to Columbia. So you ended up staying two more years to get your master's.

Did it take two more years? 

Ken Kunken: Yeah, it took two more years. 

Brad Minus: And then goes over to Columbia and now you're bouncing around for another two more years. 

Ken Kunken: Well, that's what I actually did in a little over a year because they gave me some credit for the master's degree that I had at Cornell. So it was a little over a year, but then it took longer because I was still working on the, master's thesis at Cornell, but I became the first 

quadriplegic to earn a graduate degree from Cornell as well. 

Brad Minus: That's crazy. So it was Columbia. Was it a little bit more forgiving or is it just as stairs and helly? And no, I was fortunate 

Ken Kunken: at [00:30:00] Columbia. I was actually at teacher's college, which is part of Columbia and most of it, its buildings were connected underground or above ground on top with ramps.

So basically for me to go where I was living in the city to teachers college, I well, one, I had to get out of the building. I was in the apartment building that had like four steps, but then there was only one curb that I needed to cross to get to teachers college. And I asked, you know, and I was a bit emboldened now that I got this ramp at Cornell.

I asked the city of New York if they could, at least put in curb cuts by that one intersection. And I actually couldn't believe it. They did that for me. I mean, if you could believe this in the mid seventies, New York City. Put in two curb cuts for me so I could cross the street. And so Columbia was actually easier for me to get around.

But of course, one of the problems [00:31:00] was I didn't know anybody there. You know, when I was at Cornell one, I had my football teammates. I had my Sigma Nu fraternity brothers. I had classmates that I knew. But in addition, everybody knew of me because I had gotten a lot of publicity. When I was there. So when I was out and about, I mean, when I say I got stared at everywhere, I did, but I knew it was not out of animosity.

I'd gotten a good deal of publicity up there. And I guess when you get publicity and people see you, they stare at you. Plus, of course, I was very different. Then the typical student, because not only was I in a wheelchair, I couldn't even use my arms. 

Brad Minus: Well, I'm glad Columbia was a little bit better for you.

You went to year. Looking for a job and the job you found was in, was near your, near where you lived in Long Island. 

Ken Kunken: Yeah. So I was fortunate to be hired by this sort of, and it's a phenomenal [00:32:00] organization.

It really is. It's, you know, part of what's called the other Viscardi center and they just do incredible work to help people with disabilities and they have a school there for. handicapped Children that goes all the way through high school, and they have vocational training and evaluation and placement services for people with severe disabilities.

And it's a phenomenal place to work. And I was really fortunate. To be hired there and they helped teach me how I could work in an office, you know, we worked out how I could modify a table to make it into a desk for me. And, you know, they made it a special attachment to my wrist, went to help me write a bit and I had a phone up on a Luxor arm that I could.

Put my ear next to and kind of here and they even added a special piece to my splint to try and help me dial the phone. And it really taught me a [00:33:00] real lot about how to function in an office and how to work. So I, I was so fortunate to work there. 

Brad Minus: So that was 1977, right?

Right. 

Ken Kunken: I started working there in 1977 and I worked there until, the end of July, 1979, I loved my work at the center. I really enjoyed it there a lot, but one of the duties that I had there, they kept increasing the duties that I was doing.

One of the things they had me do was to speak at conferences before groups and organizations concerning non discrimination and affirmative action for people with disabilities. Often after my talks, I would be asked questions, and while I would certainly do my best to respond appropriately, I was always very careful to caution the questioners.

They should really consult with a lawyer about their concerns. And I guess it wasn't long before I started to think, You know, there's no reason why I couldn't become that [00:34:00] lawyer. So I decided to apply to law school. Now at the time, my older brother, Steve, had become a lawyer and he was actually working as a public defender.

And I used to watch him in court as well. And I used to think, you know, that looks really interesting to me as well. Because, he was a trial attorney. And I'd see him in court and it looked like most of what you're doing is verbal, you know, you could have a physical disability and still speak. So, I decided to leave the center and go to Hofstra University's law school here on Long Island.

And when I finally did leave the center, they not only hired a full time counselor to replace me, But they had to divide additional duties that I was doing between two other employees. I'm very proud to say that I apparently made a lasting impression on the people there, because 30 years after I left, the president of Abilities Incorporated, which was part of the Human Resources Center, [00:35:00] called me on the telephone and asked me to be a member of their board of directors.

So ever since 2009, I've been serving on the board of directors first at Abilities Incorporated. And since 2017. on the board of directors of their parent company, the full Viscardi Center's board of directors. My cousin, Roy Danis, has been so close to me over the years that he's now chairman of the board of directors, the Viscardi Center.

Brad Minus: Oh, that's awesome. That's amazing. So that is, so that just goes to show what the mind can do. Right. Well, first of all, they had to replace you with three people. Which was awesome. Well, you said they had to divide your duties to other people. Yeah. So obviously, you know, can we, as you know, Joe Schmoes, like myself, we tend to either praise you.

Or [00:36:00] swear by you. Cause I'm imagining that the person that took over for you was like, God, that Ken is a really nice guy, but what a fricking overachieving, you know, for, for him to do this to me, but you know, all in good fun though, all in good fun. But that's. That's amazing. So did you, so you, so you went to law school, did you know, so I went to law 

Ken Kunken: school and you know what?

I didn't know at the time of any other quadriplegics who were trial attorneys. I mean, there may have been some, but I certainly didn't know of any and certainly weren't any on Long Island. And I certainly didn't know any who were assistant district attorneys. But I happened to do an internship at the District attorney's office on Long Island in Nassau County.

And I loved the work. It just seemed real exciting to me. And, you know, I decided that that's the type of law I would like to practice. So I applied to a full time job with [00:37:00] the office, and I was very fortunate that the district attorney at the time, Dennis Dillon, placed his hiring decision on my ability rather than my disability.

And while he had literally hundreds of applicants, I was the first law student he offered a full time position to that year. Nice. So, I completed law school during those standard three year time period. I passed the New York State Bar Exam the first time that I took it. I went through a very intensive four week training program where they taught us all aspects of trial techniques.

I very proudly went to court my first day only to find I couldn't fit through the swinging doorways in the courtroom there were a lot of challenges in my new legal career I didn't anticipate while I was in law school.

Brad Minus: All right. Did the bailiffs have to like, pick you up and over? 

Ken Kunken: Well, what they did was they had to remove the swinging doorways in the [00:38:00] courtroom and remove the screws. And for some courtrooms, I had to make a lengthy detour to go around a whole lengthy area to get to the back of the courtrooms and enter through the back and, it was a challenge.

But let me say my first, assignment had been to our traffic court. You know, at the time we had traffic court as well. They don't longer do that in our county. But I was promoted after three days in traffic court because the elevator was broken and no one knew when it would be fixed. That's how I got my first promotion in the office.

Brad Minus: Oh, wow. That's crazy. Just a thought about that. Oh my God. That's, yeah, that's, but I love the fact that you got there and you got, you got to be a trial attorney. And what I love what you said was that they hired you on your ability, not your disability. And in this day and age, there seems to be a big, Discussion around affirmative action and the discussion is, is [00:39:00] people either with disabilities or with, different races and minorities and stuff that, you know, everybody needs a leg up because of that.

And the opposite argument is that no, they don't. We go on merit on what they've done, what they can do and what their potential is. That's how people get jobs. That's how people get ahead in life. And you are the hundred percent, example of that, where you're successful and you, continue to be successful because of your ability, not your disability, which I love.

Well, one of the 

Ken Kunken: things I'd like to say about that. is when we talk about affirmative action or DEI, diversity, equity, and inclusion, we're talking about hiring an otherwise qualified individual who just also happens to have a disability. I mean, when I was looking for my job as a rehab counselor, there was no question I had all the qualifications, [00:40:00] three Ivy League degrees, two master's degrees to work as a rehab counselor, but people weren't hiring me because of my disability.

Not because I wasn't qualified to do the job. And when I was hired to work as an assistant district attorney, I didn't know of any other assistant district attorneys who were quadriplegics, but they could tell by my speaking ability and by the interviews that I went through with them and how I did in law school that I could do the job.

So I, myself, as well as others, I'm not asking anybody. To hire an individual that is not qualified just because they have a disability. It's the exact opposite. It's to hire the qualified individual who also happens to have a disability. That's what we're looking for. 

Brad Minus: And isn't that more covered in ADA versus, [00:41:00] DEI?

Ken Kunken: It absolutely, absolutely is. Now, the ADA 1990. And you know, some of its provisions gave two years to make facilities more accessible. But I started working the DA's office in 1982, eight years before that law was passed. But that's a tremendous law and it helps so many people. 

Brad Minus: Yeah, I've had some dealings with that.

As my parents owned a real estate appraisal firm. And there was a lot of ADA requirements that we had to go through in order to get reports done and to make properties available to get a loan on. And there was, some of the commercial properties. So I got some dealings with ADA and, I believe it a hundred percent.

There definitely is a need for it and it does a 

Ken Kunken: lot of good. Absolutely. And just to give you another example, when I told you about, they finally put in that ramp at Cornell, not only did nobody complain about me moving the bushes, But so many of the students preferred using the ramp to walking up and [00:42:00] down the steps.

I mean, that was helping everybody. And on a fire drill, it made the evacuation of buildings a lot quicker. And you know, when now with curb cuts and other ramps, you see it helps mothers with baby carriages. It helps people delivering supplies to buildings, right? It helps people with grocery carts. I mean, it's a win-win for so many different people.

It's like a no-brainer to do these things. 

Brad Minus: You mean back then they just didn't call it the C trail? 

Ken Kunken: No, no. They didn't say, 

Brad Minus: for Ken only. 

Ken Kunken: It was not labeled, but, I'm very proud to say I was one of the first to have some of these done. 

Brad Minus: No, and yeah, all kidding aside. But that's fantastic.

So tell me, so what was, can you tell me while you were an ADA, was maybe someone, one of the, some of the cases that are one or two of [00:43:00] the cases that stand out to you. All right, 

Ken Kunken: let me tell you my first two trials. My first trial. Now remember, I had just come from working for a couple of years as a vocational rehabilitation counselor.

My first trial, I was prosecuting somebody who was deaf and mute. He was involved in a car accident. He was not a very nice guy, and he later then tried to assault the person he was in the accident with. That was my first trial. We had to have a sign language interpreter for the trial.

My first cross examination. I'm cross examining a person who is both deaf and mute. My second trial, the defendant, who is a young girl, puts on as a character witness a father who is a paraplegic in a wheelchair. So my second cross examination, I'm cross examining somebody who's also in a wheelchair.

That's how I started my career. Not long after I started trying cases in our district court bureau, [00:44:00] I was approached by a defense attorney who told me that he overheard some of the prisoners talking about me in the pens behind the courtroom, and apparently they were saying that I was a really tough DA, and they hoped they didn't get the guy in the wheelchair as they prosecuted.

So that's how I started the office, 

Brad Minus: that 

Ken Kunken: I tried bank robberies. I tried serious assault. drug offenses, all different types of crimes. 

Brad Minus: It was the, you know, it sounds like you kind of, harnessed that football player in you, you know, the one that went after that tackle and just turned it into, prosecution, to the, where Prisoners were freaking afraid of you.

I, you know, you just can't beat that with a stick. That's outstanding. 

Ken Kunken: And I eventually became a deputy bureau chief of our county court trial bureau where in the office. I was helping supervise. More than [00:45:00] 25 other assistant district attorneys.

Brad Minus: Well, so I was about to ask you and you just answered it, you know, where'd this lead? And you ended up being the boss, 

Ken Kunken: One of the trials that I did involved a defendant who was really kind of dangerous.

He was a prior felony offender and he was convicted of, possessing a defaced handgun as well as criminal mischief for, slashing somebody's tires. And after the trial, he was convicted, but he was left out of jail pending sentence. And on the day of sentence, as I got in the elevator to take the elevator down to the courtroom, suddenly he jumps in the elevator with me.

And now, we're the only two people in the elevator. And he says, I have a proposition for you. He says, if you don't send me to jail, I'll agree to work as your personal care attendant for a year. Apparently, he seemed to [00:46:00] think that working as my attendant for a year was the equivalent of going to jail for two to six years.

Fortunately, the elevator door opened soon after that, and I politely denied his request and, went to court and he was sentenced to two to four years in jail. So that's just one example of a trial that I had that afterwards. Suddenly I'm confronted with the defendant and we're alone in the elevator.

Brad Minus: So can I ask about maybe things that you did outside of work? Now I know what you did, we see it all the time. What you did was complex and it took a lot of hours, I'm sure. Did you have.

Things that you did outside of work, knowing that you also had to take care of yourself and you had to have personal care tenants take care of you as well. You bet. 

Ken Kunken: Am most proud of, most proud of is the way my personal life has developed. 

You see, I was very fortunate. To have met, fell in love and [00:47:00] married the woman of my dreams. Her name is Anna. We got married in 2003 and my wife, Anna has totally changed my life. I've been so fortunate to be married now for more than 21 years. So I have to say some good things, but when we first talked about getting married, Ana told me that she'd like to have my baby, not just a baby, my baby. She said she wanted to see a little pumpkin running around. Now, this seemed impossible to me. I mean, at the time I had been paralyzed for more than 30 years and I was already in my fifties.

Well, we were determined to make the impossible happen, so we looked into various options, including in vitro fertilization, and we're excited to learn it still might be possible for someone in my condition to father a child.

So, [00:48:00] we pursued in vitro fertilization, and, it was obviously a difficult process for the both of us, but, through the miracle of science, Ana became pregnant. And on January 24th, 2005, I was present in the delivery room when my wife, Eleanor, gave birth to triplets.

Brad Minus: We 

Ken Kunken: have three incredible sons, Joey, Jimmy, and Timmy. They're now 19 years old. They're sophomores at three different colleges. in upstate New York. 

Brad Minus: She's 19 years old right now. Just 

Ken Kunken: a couple months, 20 in January. And bear in mind, I was 20 when I had my injury. 

Brad Minus: Football players? 

Ken Kunken: One thing that they knew not to play, but they are active. And in fact, they all pursued the [00:49:00] martial arts. And all three of them are second degree black belts in Taekwondo. And they also work as instructors during the summer as instructors for Taekwondo. And they've been studying Brazilian jujitsu as well, when they've been home away from school.

So they're very active in great shape, not football players. But their martial artists. 

Brad Minus: That's and you know what, for those of you out there that sometimes they feel like Taekwondo is one of the inferior martial arts, due to, you know, it's just not, it's not considered that because there's Taekwondo Businesses all over the place.

But let me tell you something as also a black belt and Taekwondo. When I got that when I was 16 or 17, it's very, very physical. It's high flying jumps and when you work out, you work out. You know what I mean? I had my fair share of Aikido and, hop keto, which is Aikido on the [00:50:00] Korean side.

It's a very passive martial arts, very superior. And it does what it's supposed to do. Let's put it that way. But Taekwondo, it's very physical. So you can get in great shape, learning Taekwondo.

So that's hats off to them. Second degree is huge. And obviously they're going to continue growing in that. And then they'll get into jujitsu. And then before you know it, they'll all three of them will be mMA, super fighters. What are the, are they all studying the same thing or?

No, 

Ken Kunken: My son, James is at State University of New York at Morrisville studying renewable energy. My son, Timothy is pursuing a dual major. At the SI Newhouse School of Communications and the Maxwell School of Public Affairs at Syracuse University. And he wants to be a journalist.

And my son, Joseph is going to be pursuing a career in mechanical engineering at Cornell university. 

Brad Minus: No 

Ken Kunken: Joseph [00:51:00] enrolled as a freshman there. 

Brad Minus: Wow, that's a Chippewa feel block. It sounds like all three of them are that, but it's, that's great. That's fantastic.

I can't even tell you that just puts a huge smile on my face is thinking about it. Oh, wow. That's fantastic. So, you had a family, which is fantastic. And you know, you and I were going through, my wife was going through in vitro at the same time. Unfortunately. ours. I wasn't as successful as you were.

But it's interesting. That was about the same time. So I know what you went through. I don't know what that process entails. It's not fun. The anticipation is hard enough, but for your wife, it is not a pleasant experience, right? So now you've spent did you end up spending your, the rest of your career with the DA?

Because I mean, you were bureau chief you worked, 

Ken Kunken: I worked at the district Attorney's office full-time until 2016, so that was almost 34 years [00:52:00] fulltime. And then for the next eight years I worked there as a part-time help, in a part-time capacity giving, assistance and trial advice to less experienced assistant district attorneys.

And I might add, I've been so proud that last year the district attorney's office Actually started a new award that they're giving out annually. Last December was the first time they gave it out that they named the Kenneth J. Kumpkin award that they give out to an outstanding assistant DA every year.

And I've been so proud that they've named it after me. 

Brad Minus: That's amazing. And then, just this last March, you were named one of the Long Island business news influencers in law, 

Ken Kunken: So I've been very fortunate in the path my career has taken. And as I indicated before, I could not have done any of it.

Without a lot of help and support from my family, [00:53:00] my friends, my classmates, my fellow ADAs that I work with, paralegals, student interns, I've been very fortunate to have had a lot of help from a lot of people. 

Brad Minus: And thank God for those people because we need people like you around. Just everything you've accomplished in your life, which, could very well have ended.

They told your parents, there was a possibility of that. You weren't even going to make it. Then you turn that into, you know, a long, a bunch of master's degree, you know, two master's degrees and a bachelor's degree. You didn't let that stop you then, you know, even after you realized that, Hey, psychology probably the way to go, but no, that, that was a good fit, but it wasn't the fit.

And then you found the law. And you kept searching. I love that idea that you, you know, that you had this ongoing search for what your purpose was, you know, and your search was, you know, hindered [00:54:00] unfortunately by your disability, not mentally sociologically, you know, you were in that part before ADA was even born, or, and, affirmative action.

I think that, yeah, I can't, you're, you know, you're just what I thought. And you're a superhero, you're a bad ass superhero. I love the fact that, you know, you said you give all the compliments to your help, the people that helped you out.

Absolutely. So don't showing that, Hey, don't be afraid to ask for help. If you need it, ask for it. It's not strength to do something on your own. Yeah. When there is help around because what, when you give help to somebody, then they in return will give help to you and vice versa. When you ask for help, you are then, you know, then you will find ways to give other people help.

And it just becomes a pay it forward type of deal. So it always, it always goes around that way. I constantly think about that again. I do a lot with cancer organizations. I've [00:55:00] coached for cancer organizations. I volunteer for different organizations like that.

But I think one of the biggest things that I remember, and this is just, is this help example. I was in a triathlon and I'm coming up and we're on the bike portion of it. And then one of the guys next to me and he's like, he's running with his bike. Like literally running with it.

Right. And I'm like, what's going on? He goes, I got two flats and I stopped the bike. I says, I'm not getting off my bike, but in my back carrier is a tube and a thing of CO2. So we can pump it up. I says, take those. I'm out. He goes, well, how am I going to find you to repay you and get you back to your tool?

And I says, no, you just pay it forward. Six miles later. I hear this pop.

Now I don't have a tube, a nice lady pulls up in front of me. She's like, you okay. And I'm like, yeah, I got a flat, but I gave my tube to somebody else. She goes, Oh, take mine. And I was like, so see, it just keeps moving forward. That help keeps moving forward. So, you know, offer help [00:56:00] and you will receive help.

Maybe not from that person. But somewhere down the line when you ask for it, but you've got to have the courage to ask for it. And yeah, don't forget using Ken's examples and everything that he went through and had the persistence to have such a successful and long career, and has been recognized for it.

When did you write your book? 

Ken Kunken: Thank you for asking. When I was still in the rehab center more than 50 years ago, a friend of my aunt by the name of Al Meglin, came to the rehab center and suggested I write a book and he did it for a couple of reasons. One, he knew I was very depressed at the time and he thought by talking about it, it may help my depression, but two, he said, nobody knows what you're going through.

Nobody knows what happens in a rehab center. People usually don't know much about a spinal cord injury. Or what is being done, you know, and what we have entails and he suggested that I write a [00:57:00] book initially he came to the rehab center once a week and I would dictate to him 

he said, just tell me what you're feeling, what you did today, you know, and then we'll go back and talk about your injury and then, of course, when I went back to school, we had stopped and a couple of times we got together over my vacations and then it stopped and I would every so often I'd pick it up again and I would try and write it.

On my own by typing and with braces and splints, I could type with the erase of a pencil. This was before laptop computers, right? So I can type, you know, one finger at a time. It was with a pencil really slowly and I typed a bit and then we put it down for years. And of course, when I married my wife on and we had the triplets.

Ana was encouraging me to finish my book. She thought it was really a story that needed to be told. And whenever we had spare time, we would try and sit down and write the book. And when I finally retired from full time work and [00:58:00] we're still working part time with the DA or DA's office, we spent more time writing it.

And just to tell you a little bit about the title of the book, while I was still a patient in the rehab center. I was asked to testify before a United States Senate Health Subcommittee hearing chaired by Senator Edward Kennedy, and eight days after my testimony, Senator Kennedy sent me a glass paperweight in the mail that had an inscription on it that the senator said his late brother, Robert Kennedy, liked very much.

And the inscription was a quotation. That I looked up, I found it was originally attributed to George Bernard Shaw. And the words on that inscription have always been very meaningful to me. It's the inscription read, some men see things as they are and say, why? I dream of things that never were and say why not and that's why I got the title of my book I dream of things that never were [00:59:00] the ken Kunken story and i'm so fortunate that 12 tables press agreed to publish my book and if people want to order it one it's available on amazon, but they could go to my website kenKunken.

com And they could learn other ways to purchase the book And also a little bit more about myself and my life. 

Brad Minus: That's fantastic. You couldn't have said it better for myself. Cause I was just about to say the exact same thing. So I'm going to take those links that Ken just mentioned. I'm going to put them in the show notes.

So all of you will have that direct access From the show notes of this podcast, whether it be on Apple, whether it be on YouTube, or whether it be in Spotify, remember it's called, I dream of things that never were the Ken Conkin story. And, by 12, by 12 tables press, I will have the Amazon link and his web link in the show notes, as I mentioned, do you have a.

Oh, you do. You've got [01:00:00] somebody taking care of your social media for you? 

Ken Kunken: My wife has been helping me with that and, she's been absolutely great with that. In fact, we're also in the process of having an audio book, completed. I've dictated it and now we have a company working on the editing and printing, putting that out as well.

Fortunately my wife has been Taking care of just about everything and helping promote my book. I've got a good friend named Debbie , who I used to work with, who's been helping me promote the book as well. And Steve, Eric, the publisher of 12 Tables Press has been absolutely great in giving me whatever assistance I need.

Brad Minus: Fantastic. So I'm looking on here, and I think it's looks like your active Facebook, YouTube, Instagram, and LinkedIn, which are all the platforms that I would expect you to be on? You cover the gamut of the people that you want to reach in these four platforms. So I think that's [01:01:00] fantastic.

Again, I'm going to have those in the show notes for you. And Ken, thank you so much for sharing your story with us. It is probably one of the most inspirational stories that I've been able to hear. You are, an amazing person and a wonderful person. I mean, I could just tell really, you know, just down to earth, nice, understand what's going on and your accomplishments are, beyond.

So I really appreciate you taking the time to be on life changing challengers with us. And, for the rest of you, like I said, everything that you need is going to be in the show notes. If you want, if you're checking this out on YouTube, please hit the like button, hit subscribe. If you already haven't hit the notification bell, so you can always know when there's a new episode that's dropped, if you're on, Apple or Spotify or any of the other ones, if you could just drop us, drop us a quick review and you know what?

I don't even care if it's a good one. If you have something that can give us, constructive criticism, then I can make this podcast better. I would really, really appreciate it [01:02:00] personally. I don't think you're going to be able to give me any kind of, constructive criticism on this episode, but maybe some of the other episodes.

So, thank you so much. Thank you, Ken. Thank you, Anna. And we will see you all in the next one. Thank you, Brett.