Breaking Free from Toxic Relationships with Martina Gruppo

Brad Minus: [00:00:00] And welcome back to another episode of life changing challengers as always, I'm Brad Minus and I'm your host and extremely excited to have author Martina Rupo with me today. Hey, Martina. How you doing? 

Martina Grupo: I'm really happy to be here. Hi, Brad. Thank you very much for inviting me onto your show. 

Brad Minus: Oh, the honor and the privilege is all mine and I appreciate you joining me.

So Martina. Just to get us started, can you tell us a little about your childhood, maybe where you grew up? What was the complement of your family and what was it like to be Martina as a kid? 

Martina Grupo: Okay, well, first of all, the surname kind of gives it away. So I'm half Irish and half Italian, but I was born in the UK.

My dad died when I was very, very young, so the Italian part came about more that we used to go to Italy quite a lot on holiday. So, you know, that sort of remains that grew that Italian part of me, if you [00:01:00] like. I have a brother. Childhood was. pretty privileged, I guess. I went to private school.

My mum worked really, really hard, to send us to private schools and, making sure that we got the best education. I think that's what she felt was really important. In terms of, what it like, what was a childhood. Yeah, I mean, when I say privileged, I think in terms of going to Italy, you know, foreign holiday in the seventies, getting on a plane, being taken up to the cockpit to chat to the pilot and things like that, you know, things that you just don't even hear of when it was, when travel was, was interesting.

It was when travel was a joy. In terms of that, we were very privileged. . When I was younger, I think part of my personality or part of the way that my character formed was through becoming very much a people pleaser. I was the eldest child and I wanted to make sure that everything that was possible to be done could be done. If my mum [00:02:00] wanted, ironing done or a roast dinner cooked or anything like that, I would put myself forward because I wanted to be the person that was, praised and was looking out for everybody else, which we will come about later on in life 

think that's how I ended up in the mess that I ended up in, if you like. And I think when you take on the personality of somebody who puts everybody else first, even if it's about buying presents, you know, other people are more important, put it that way. So I did, I did a lot

I wasn't particularly academic. I was very, very bright. You know, I was amazing at creative writing and things like that. And I was also really good at languages, you know, French and Italian. I studied, but I was rubbish at exams. I mean, dreadful at exams. I just couldn't do them at all. And also maths, maths was a bit of a nemesis for me too.

But generally speaking, [00:03:00] I enjoyed school. I quite liked school. I quite liked, studying and, you know, but I just wasn't focused on studying. I have my mindset on travel. I wanted to do something where I would incorporate travel. And that was probably because from a very young age, we'd gone over to Italy, to the North of Italy so much.

I felt that there was, I don't know, something out there, a bigger world out there. There was something really attractive about traveling and about being with other people. By the time I got to 19, I was pretty sure I didn't want to go off to, college or university or anything like that.

I just wasn't interested in it at that stage. And I had a very key plan and the key plan was to go abroad, learn a language, study the language. Then go to another country, study the language until I was fluent in it, and then come back with the idea of having two or three fluent languages [00:04:00] under my belt, and then open a creche.

Weirdly. I mean, now, when I think about it, that's just what I wanted to do because I loved kids and I love travel and I love languages. So I felt that all of this could all be, could all be, you know, carried on into a sort of business way. And then I met somebody in England. who physically beat me, basically, and I was with him and he was an older guy for a couple of years and yeah, it was a very unpleasant relationship.

Brad Minus: Okay, before we delve into that, let me just, ask you a vocabulary question. What's a crush? 

Martina Grupo: Crash. A crash is like opening a crash is, is, I had this vision of people needed to go out to work and they needed, you know, especially in a place I didn't actually mention. I'm so sorry.

I was, I grew up in the most amazing city in the Southwest of England, which is [00:05:00] Bath. I don't know if you've ever heard of it. It's a Roman city and it's gorgeous. It's like, I suppose the equivalent is like Florence, but it's a really. beautiful, amazing country, amazing city, Roman city.

And there's a lot of French, Spanish, Italian, sort of, you know, that the foreigners that go there and set up businesses and things like that. And in my head, when I was 17, 18, I thought, well, they have children, so they're going to need to put them somewhere. So I would, it like a daycare center, I suppose.

Brad Minus: I was about to say, a childcare, 

Martina Grupo: so my idea was that I would have this room. Amazing place that would be an international place and I would be the one that could speak all the languages and would be able to run all of this and look at me and, you know, and I 

Brad Minus: love that idea. I think it's wonderful. 

Martina Grupo: I seriously, Brad, I look back now and I'm thinking at 17, 18, where did this come from? You know, the idea, I think a huge part of me always wanted to have [00:06:00] children. That was, that was my goal was to have children. And I felt that this could incorporate a love of languages, a love of travel, and of course, the love of children.

Brad Minus: So yeah, you mentioned that you are a people pleaser and that you, wanted to take care of the family, but we didn't know how many are actually in the family. How many did you do brothers and sisters? 

Martina Grupo: One brother just one brother. He was a younger brother.

Okay. He is a young brother. 

Brad Minus: But you're the one that wanted to take care of him and you did 

Martina Grupo: I'm holding something back actually, which is My mother and I didn't have a great relationship 

Brad Minus: Okay 

Martina Grupo: And I, there was an element of alcoholism there, I would say. And so I kind of took on a more maternal role in that I was the one who was covering up for what she was doing.

I think, when you have to deal with that kind of a [00:07:00] situation, at home, then what you end up doing is you compensate for what you see is lacking. And that becomes a part of your intrinsic personality, doesn't it?

It's covering up. It's not allowing other people to see the cracks or the less than pretty makeup of where you are in your life. Does that make sense? 

Brad Minus: Yeah. Makes sense. Just, it's kind of escapism, but into, you know, almost like, Into the fire, instead of, you know, instead of somewhere that's a little more dreamy, you went into the fire first.

Martina Grupo: And as a child, you're not supposed to put yourself in the role of an adult. It's not really fair and I think it stays with you for a long, long time. So that was quite hard. But I went against all of their wishes, everybody's, including my beloved stepfather, whom I adored, and set off at 19 and went to Italy.

[00:08:00] And yeah, and then it kind of all exploded. I think I spent, I was only supposed to go there for a year, but I'd managed to get out of the clutches of the awful boyfriend who used to beat me up and I'd gone over there. But, you know, when I went over to live in Rome, It was as if somebody had gone, Oh, this is what, this is what enjoying yourself is supposed to be about.

This is look, people don't hit you and you know, you can walk around. At school, I was always too tall, too skinny, too lanky. My lips were too big. My eyes were too slanty. I was always too something. And suddenly in Italy, they were going, Oh, ciao Bella. And, you know, it was more like.

I was received really well. And so suddenly I was like, wow, this is seriously the place for me. This is amazing. And yeah, it was, it was really fun and really good. And I had a really good time and, and I think I came back [00:09:00] to England and everybody was saying, oh, so, you know, when are you coming back? No, I'm not coming back.

I'm staying over there. It's amazing. And I made a life for myself. Well, I only went for one year and I stayed for six. And, of course, it was during that time that I met somebody who was to later destroy my life almost. I met the narcissist for the first time.

I fell head over heels in love. And remember, narcissism was just nothing then, you know, we're talking so many decades ago, nobody had ever heard of it or knew anything about it. And also, I think that when you're much younger, when you're in your 20s, That's all covered up by how happy you are and how things are happening.

So you don't see no, you know, when you're young, you forgive things or you just move on. And I was having the most [00:10:00] incredibly hedonistic, amazing lifestyle out partying, all the rest of it, everything that came with it. And it was phenomenal. And I was in love and Behaved stupidly the way in love. 20 something year olds behave.

This is it. This is forever. 

Brad Minus: Yeah, I get that. And, you know, in narcissism, and I've had, I've had a couple other episodes and we'll go ahead and we'll link to those. But, and, you know, just like you said, it was, Oh, he's a little conceited. You know, and if he is conceited, as long as he could back it up, right?

So, you know, we've got people in our government and things that are all over the place right now. And, and it's, it's one thing to be a narcissist. And be conceited and truly believe who you are and what you are. But it's another thing to project that out and not be able to back it up.

Martina Grupo: Yeah. 

Brad Minus: You know what I mean? And it's most of the time we call a narcissist to somebody that can't back it up. Yeah. Oh, they're this [00:11:00] way. They're that way. But they can talk to talk, but they can't walk the walk. And then they truly believe that they're this, amazing person, but it turns out that really not.

And then so far, what I have uncovered, and we're going to get into your story here in a minute, is that a lot of those They make up for it with, some of the more awful things that you've been through. So let's go into it. So let's give this guy a name. You don't have to give a real name if you don't want to, but let's just so you can go through and you can actually call it.

You can actually call him a name. Like I said, you don't have to use his real name if you don't want 

Martina Grupo: no, I don't. Just call him the knock. 

Brad Minus: Okay. 

Martina Grupo: I'm sorry. 

Brad Minus: Fine. 

Martina Grupo: But the first time around in my twenties, he was glorious, tall, amazing. He was everything I could possibly have dreamed of. He was just like. This is the, my fantasy man come to life. And yeah, I, we went along with it for, you know, two or three years, two years maybe. And it was wonderful, but [00:12:00] there is a part inside of me, which is very much a, my mother's daughter, if you like.

And there was a part of me that was thinking, I need to go to university. I need to get an education. I need to find a career. You know, my stepfather has always my father who I refer to him as my dad in the book, and he is for all intents and purposes, my father instilled in me the most incredible work ethic.

So yeah, having parties and doing all sorts of things and everything else is fine for a while, but there was a part of me that was like tapping going, come on. You're getting towards 30 or 26, whatever it was that I was. And so I presented this to him and said, okay, let's go, you know, let's go back to England.

You could learn English. You can find a job. What would you like to do? And he just went, no. No, I'm not going back to England. That doesn't appeal to me at all. And I was broken by [00:13:00] this because I just thought we were going to live happily ever after and it was going to be amazing. So I went back to England, enrolled in university, got myself an economics and French degree, European economics and French degree.

Yeah, thank you. I was no more mature than, you know, 

Brad Minus: Hey, you don't have to, don't, I'm right there with you. Yes, I went, I did my bachelors right out of high school. I did take a couple of years off between sophomore and junior year.

They went back, then went to the military. And then at 26. I went to graduate school and got my MBA, which is why I'm impressed about you giving an economics degree because the economics and stats were like my two worst fricking classes during my MBA. 

Martina Grupo: They were mine. I think I was pushed through those classes.

Congratulations on having an MBA, but I, you know, on achieving an MBA, but isn't it weird how, At the time, at 26, I felt so much older than everybody [00:14:00] else. And you're called a mature student. There was nothing mature about me at all. And I was also going through real heartache. And I just thought, Oh my God, I'm so heartbroken.

I'm never going to meet anybody. This is going to be awful and all the rest of it. I'll fast forward. I did get over the heartbreak. Eventually, I put it to one side and just thought, right, moving on. I talk a lot more about it in the book about what happened between, you know, how I went through university, how I got through that, and then how I, proceeded on to the next parts.

And I did see him one more time, but you know, that is for the book. And it was, yeah, because I spent part of my degree in Paris. And he flew in to Paris because he was on his way on holiday somewhere, probably paid for by somebody else and rang me up on the off chance. So, yes, this. intelligent woman here actually fell for a ridiculous booty [00:15:00] call in Paris when I should have be and thinking that it was, this was again, a step towards us having a constructive relationship.

So naive. Anyway, when I was 30 or yeah, around 30, I was working in a company where I was using my Italian and my French in an audio company. I met my first husband. He wasn't really for me, but, you know, at 30, you feel like you're past it, 

but anyway, I thought, I need to get married and I wanted to have children desperately. I'm afraid it ended really badly after three years because. He wasn't with me anymore. He was with somebody else and I was suffering from severe infertility problems, endometriosis and things like that.

And I had a miscarriage. I miscarried twins. [00:16:00] And then everybody said, Oh, don't worry. That means thank you. That means that, you know, you can have children. Actually it meant I couldn't. It, it was a fluke and he then proceeded to, we were going to go through IVF, but he chose to cancel it because he was busy having an affair with somebody else.

And then he proceeded to try and take everything from me financially. But as his barrister stood up in court and said, she's not entitled to anything because it's not like she could have children or anything. 

Brad Minus: Your court system is just as effed up as ours. 

Martina Grupo: Yeah. The only thing you can hope for Brad is what goes around comes around. It hurt massively and it was all I'd ever wanted was to have kids. And so then I was alone. And of course, you know, it's weird, isn't it? But when you're in your thirties and you [00:17:00] are alone, you really feel as though you are never gonna meet anybody.

You're never going to find anybody that, that likes you or wants you for who you are. I just took a sort of long, hard look at myself and I was an office manager in an engineering consultancy. And I just thought, is this it? I went for a job. Interview for a better job and I didn't get it and I felt that somebody was saying to me you shouldn't be getting another job doing the same thing Remember I said I didn't follow a particularly conventional path.

Brad Minus: Yeah 

Martina Grupo: ready for this? 

Brad Minus: Okay, let's do it. 

Martina Grupo: I decided I was going to go volunteer in a country, where I could put some of the love that was missing from not having children. And the country that I chose was up in the mountains of Miraflore in Central America in Nicaragua. 

Brad Minus: Wow. Okay. You've been safer in Africa.

But [00:18:00] you know what? I gotta hand it to you though. I mean, if that's what you want to do. If you wanted to surround yourself with kids and protect them and that deep, motherly protection that you sounded like you had in you and you wanted to fulfill that and.

Do good at the same time. It obviously was the way to go. 

Martina Grupo: Well, I trusted kind of destiny and fate and things like that. And I said, right, well, I will go and teach up there. So I got myself a teaching qualification and went up and taught English to the guides that were up there to help the community and stuff, but that wasn't supposed to be what I was going to be doing ultimately.

So ultimately, I then I had a friend who came over and we went down onto the West Coast of Nicaragua and, you know, I got a little bit homesick then and she said to me, you need to come down here at the weekends, you know, get away from the mountains and just come down here, then that will, you know, rejuvenate you and [00:19:00] stuff.

Well, when I was down there, I would talk to backpackers. And when I was talking to the backpackers and everything, I said, well, why don't you come back up with me to the community and see what it's like? And of course, backpackers are desperate to find where nobody else has been to.

So then I started organizing for groups to go up and stay in the community. And then they were paying the community members directly in the

Brad Minus: Like increasing economic activity into a community 

Martina Grupo: but wait, they then said how much they like the coffee. So I then thought, yeah, now what we could do is sell. The coffee from that the women are producing in this community. Look at your face. The women are producing this coffee up there.

I think that we should be selling this to bars and restaurants down in Leon and on the West Coast. So that's what I started to do. So I would put it all into a rucksack, take it down there, talk to all the different places, bring [00:20:00] down the coffee. And then somebody saw me and said, Oh, I know what you are.

You are the coffee fairy and I thought I looked at this person. He was a friend of mine and I just thought, that's a really good name for a company. So then, I decided that what I was gonna do on my own was export the coffee from. the northern mountains of Nicaragua to the UK and sell it and start my own coffee company and cut out the middle.

Brad Minus: That's fantastic. And well, and it even sounds even better to me because I'm one of those coffee connoisseurs myself. I'm a, big coffee drinker. So I'm already like my mouth salvage is thinking about your coffee from the plant, you know, people that are pulling it out. And what was, are, were these green or were they already roasted?

Martina Grupo: No, no, no. Green beans. You've got to, you've got to ship green beans. It was a whole, whole new learning curve for [00:21:00] me. I had no clue about coffee. 

And they said that they wanted better educational facilities for their kids. And I said, okay, you sell me your coffee at a good price. I will get you a good price for your coffee. But also I will do talks in the UK in schools and colleges and any funds that they raise, I will bring them back to you and build you some schools.

Which I did. 

Brad Minus: Do 

Martina Grupo: you, 

Brad Minus: you're the, you know, the teachy teacher, coffee fairy godmother, , 

Martina Grupo: if you Google Coffee Fairy, or yeah, or my name and coffee. I can't remember if it's my name. There's a talk where I'm, it's about 10 years ago, I think, and I was doing this talk at this fair where I was ranting about.

Ethical labeling, because they used to put things like soil association and fair trade stickers on these things. And I was getting really angry saying, oh, my farmers can't afford this certification, but their coffee is twice as good as the stuff that, [00:22:00] you know, is actually out there.

And these are all just. you know, money that you pay in order to get that certification in their part of cooperatives. My, by the end of it, but it was a struggle because I was on my own and, you know, I did get a business partner, but he just was useless. He, you know, it didn't work.

He was, he was in for the money and he was probably very good at doing, you know, money, but I was more about the, the, the ethical side of things. 

Brad Minus: And I think that's because like, yeah, just like you said, you got to pay money to get the fair, the fair trade license. You got to get a money for the GMO license.

You got to pay money for it to be organic and all this stuff. And yours was, because you literally were getting it from people that were pulling it off the plant and giving it to you. 

Martina Grupo: Exactly, exactly. I did try, I did go out and pick the copy myself. Thankless task. Awful, awful thing. So I left that to them because I'm not going to do everything, seriously.

[00:23:00] So, yeah, and it won awards. It won Great Taste Awards back in the UK and it was sold in Harvey Nichols. You know, it was sold in some really big places, but probably the best thing was I invested over 23, 000 into the communities and I would argue with airport staff about taking bagfuls of secondhand clothes back and say, you shouldn't be charging me for these.

These are going to the community. How dare you? And all the rest of it. Nobody ever listened to me. But yeah, it was good and there I was. Recording a radio program. Don't ask me how, Brad, but recording a radio program for the BBC food program all about coffee. I think that's still out there somewhere and I get an email and the NARC is back.

Yeah, I can almost see your [00:24:00] face just going, Oh no. So I had tried dating and I had tried a few things, you know, here and there about, online dating, but it, you know, and I'd let somebody down who was probably perfect for me, but I just wasn't ready for him, you know, that kind of thing. And I lost out.

But anyway, He emailed me and I immediately responded saying, Oh my God, I'm so happy you found me. I've been waiting forever for this. And literally like a ripe piece of fruit fell into his lap. And yeah, that was the start of 11 of the hardest years of my life. Yeah. Awful. Just, you know, I said to you before that, I was with somebody who physically abused me.

Brad Minus: Right. 

Martina Grupo: Who beat 

Brad Minus: Before you went to Italy the first time. 

Martina Grupo: Nothing compares to what a narcissist does to you. [00:25:00] Nothing compares to the damage they do, the long term damage. The mental and psychological takedown of a person is something that very few people unless you're actually in it.

I find it very frustrating when people say, Oh yeah, I was with a narcissist and I've now had to take a few deep breaths and go, Oh, where are you? Whereas before, you know, I'd straight away say, Oh my God, you poor thing.

But now I realise that they're just labelling somebody who maybe is a bit of a nut. Excuse my language, but a bit of an arsehole and they're just saying he's, he's, you know, No, he's not. You know, we've all got that capability of being a bit of an idiot inside of us. It doesn't make you a narcissist because you tell a lie doesn't mean you're gaslighting somebody.

And I'm tired because when you're in it, when you're in the middle of [00:26:00] that cycle of, of really horrific abuse, which you don't even know of manipulation, let's not even use the word abuse. Let's say when you're in a cycle of, of constant, constantly being manipulated and also constantly being controlled, you, that you don't see a way out.

You can't, you can't see. And I, you know, you've just listened to me talk about my childhood, talk about the way that I was, the fact that I took off to Italy, took off to Nicaragua. I wasn't a wilting wallflower. I was feisty, independent, sometimes quite, you know,

Sometimes I could be quite, quite strident and forthright in some of my opinions or some of the things that I did and said and how I behaved. But I wasn't afraid. And they are, we, [00:27:00] I am the type of person that they love. They don't go for the weak, you know, the ones that stay at home. They seek you out because you have something that they aren't.

And yes, he came back into my life and I thought, Oh my God, this is my time. Finally, my time has come. My time to be happy. My time to have what everybody else has and talks about. You know, this is somebody who knew me when I was younger and is going to love me.

You know, really love me. 

Brad Minus: I 

Martina Grupo: couldn't have been more wrong. 

Brad Minus: So, alright, you go over to Italy at 19, you spend some time, you meet this guy, then you figure out what you want, then you kind of decide what you want to do with your life, and you're like, hey, listen, come with me. He says no, and he's gone.

Heartbroke. You're heartbroken as you're going through school, but you get it through. 

Martina Grupo: I just, the [00:28:00] one thing I missed out saying was all that time beforehand, I carried that, that was my fault for leaving Italy. That was my fault for leaving him. That was me that walked away. Therefore I was responsible for having broken up that relationship.

Brad Minus: Instead of you realizing that this was mutual, you wanted one thing, he wanted another, and that was just. You know, that was just the way it was. It wasn't fault. It was just, no, I mean, in reality, that was the, that was the thing, but you actually said no, because you wanted to go get an education and he, and he wasn't ready to follow you, you left.

So therefore it was, you would put it in your head that it was your fault. I get it. 

Martina Grupo: So I, for years afterwards, as far as I was concerned, my responsibility, it was me, it was down to me finishing it. So he was on a home run when he met me again, because I was then so determined [00:29:00] that this time it wouldn't fail at what personal cost.

So no matter how bad things got, no matter how dreadful it was, I constantly said to myself, I have to make this work because I walked out of it the last time. This has, this is on me to make this work until it nearly killed me. 

Brad Minus: Meanwhile, he sees that not only do you now have an education, you also have a thriving business.

You've got a ton of experience. You've been around, you know, you've been in three separate continents by this point. 

Martina Grupo: And 

Brad Minus: now, you know, now for now you're, whereas before you might've been young, you weren't, you, you didn't have an education. You were kind of working hand to mouth the whole bit, you know, he was like, okay, that's too easy for him to get back with you to now get a portion of [00:30:00] what you have.

That becomes a challenge. That's why they don't go. That's why you're right. That's why they don't go to over the meek because it's too easy. 

Martina Grupo: And so it was as if he just landed back on a load of comfortable cushions. And I met him and he wasn't working. And then I replayed what I'd done in my childhood.

which was put him first above anything to do with any needs, wants, desires of my own. He was, he was up here. I mean, if I just tell you this, I can't wait to see your face when I just say this to you, but we were together for 11 years. And I think he worked a total of one. 

Brad Minus: I don't understand that because here in America, you, there are definitely people like that. Okay. But very rarely the guys, Than [00:31:00] I talk to. There's more of the struggle when both, when both of the co of the couple, if they both work, it becomes more of a struggle if the man is not the one making more of the money, be doing the providing.

You know, very rarely do you find, do you find guys that you know don't wanna work or are willing to not work? If the wife is working. 

Martina Grupo: Oh, my God. I held down four jobs at a time. 

Brad Minus: Yeah. So, I mean, that already now, he might have been an anomaly as far as the Italian culture goes. I am not sure you'd have to know.

Yeah, I'm gonna wait for part 

Martina Grupo: I think that there is a culture in Italy that has a streak of laziness running through it. And I'm going to save that for another time because it's quite an, yeah, let's not offend a load of people 

Brad Minus: Well, I mean, I don't really care [00:32:00] about that.

Offense is in the eye of the offended. So if people want to be offended by it, then they can, look in the mirror, but what I'm saying is, prior to us starting this recording, and we had talked about that I had been to Italy just recently, all the places that we went into for espresso or for food.

Most of them were ran by women. There were a couple of them that the chefs were male, but most of it was run by women. 

Martina Grupo: I think it, there's a bit of a change in the culture there. There's this happening, you know, that women are working more, but one of the things that really, it's very sad, you know, there's very much a, cultural difference.

When I go out in England, I see women of all ages out together. I see groups of women of all different ages, like women in their fifties, women in their forties, women in their thirties. I see men and women out together, you know, just not just couples, but also whereas in Italy, it's very much a, if you go out, you see men, [00:33:00] men, and then the only women you see will be the ones with babies or with their mothers or mother in laws.

It's a huge, huge difference in terms of what's allowed over there. But honestly, we should save that for another one because I find it, he would, this is where the narcissistic personality comes in because I really struggled. I often asked him, you know, why aren't you more dynamic?

Why aren't you trying to find things to do? for me, it was just inconceivable, but the excuses that he came out with, because he did come over to live in England for a while. For four years, we ended up staying in England because he had nothing in Italy. There was no reason for him to stay in Italy because honestly it was much better for him to be back in England.

And I did everything and I paid for the rent. And you know, I had the car and I was still running the coffee business and everything he latched onto me. You know, I [00:34:00] was, he was a parasite. He was a parasite and he would complain about things that weren't going, Oh God. Yeah. You know, when it's really hard because it's as if you, you, you are never good enough.

I was never good enough. Literally never good enough. Whatever I did, there was always something wrong, but it was said with a smile, or it was said and it takes you down. When you're in it, You don't really see what's actually happening to you.

This year, somebody asked me about my house, this house that I bought over there. After my father died, he knew that I wanted to buy a house in England, and told me to buy a house near where we were. It becomes more evident in the book, you know, how that all panned out. And I bought this house. and took a video around, you know, it was, it was all, you know, I love interior design.

I love doing places up and refurbishing and all that kind [00:35:00] of thing. People say I'm good at it, which is very nice, but you know, I like a lovely home and I like certain things. I don't like clutter and things like that. And this house, he was filming me as I was walking around it and it was all to be redone and everything else.

And I had visions and I could see where it was all going. Brad, I looked like. I'm empty. Even though I'm smiling, I look brittle and broken and hunched. And this year I showed somebody who stayed with me because I ran a bed and breakfast in the summer out of my place. Of course I did. I know. I know. 

Brad Minus: No, don't be sorry. Don't be sorry. If we were talking about my story, I have things like that as well. I understand. But I think it's amazing that you have found, you have found ways to first of all, make money. Second of all, but you've, these are very [00:36:00] personal things.

You have to be in touch with people. Yes. You know, And he's not, 

Martina Grupo: he hasn't taken that out of me. I think it's very easy to become cynical and jaded. And I don't trust very easily. Unfortunately, that's a, you know, huge thing. And living in Italy has not helped that at all. They are not good people to trust.

Generally speaking, the ones that I've come across, but this year I had somebody staying with me, a lovely French woman, and she said to me, Do you have any photographs of your house when, you know, before it became like this? And I said, I showed her this video and I could see her face was really, really shocked.

And she said to me tomorrow, we're going to do a new video. And I was like, Oh, really, you know, are we? And she said, yes, because if you're selling it, you need to have a new video. So before, while it's looking beautiful with everything in bloom and all the rest of it, I burst into tears when I saw the [00:37:00] video, then had a friend of mine, a really good friend of mine. He put the two videos together and even, and I put it at the bottom of that sub stack page, take the photo and it's called take the photo, because in that moment you are never going to capture. again, what you have in that moment.

That's what the whole thing is about. And at the bottom of it, I put the two comparison videos. Now, both of those videos are in color, but when you watch them, the first one looks like it's in black and white. And the second one looks as though I've switched the light on. And it's amazing. 

Brad Minus: Well, I mean, coming out of that and you, and, and I've seen that as well. Like I said, I've, I've got a couple other episodes, and where I've talked to people that have been in a relationship with a pure nar narcissist and, yeah, you, in seeing pictures [00:38:00] and, and stuff, it's, it's, it'll take it outta you.

And then when they, finally realize and you come back into the light. That's, you know, things change. I'm just glad that you're back out of it. Let's, let's step back just so we understand exactly. And I hate to say this because I'm not, you know, I'm kind of a, I'm a much of an optimist, but I'm going to go pessimistic and let's see how bad it really was.

Can you give us a typical day, from getting up, going back to sleep, what your life was like in the heart of your relationship with the NARC? 

Martina Grupo: Well, how about I talk about, when I had cancer, 

Brad Minus: okay, so 

Martina Grupo: if 

Brad Minus: You want to go, if you want to double down on the, I 

Martina Grupo: Okay. So I had breast cancer. I'm fully recovered now. I had breast cancer and it was. What we call in England, triple negative and triple, triple negative tumor means that you have to have a really high dose of [00:39:00] chemotherapy. Okay, so I, he didn't like hospitals. So the first time he accompanied out of six, he came to one.

He came to the first one. And in the first one. While I was being hooked up and they were trying to find a vein that would work so that they could do, start putting it in. This was before I had a PICC line inserted in me. He sat there and he said, Oh, I'm just going to pop out for a cigarette. And I looked at him and said, No, you're not.

No, no, you cannot go out. And leave me and then come back in here in this room, smelling of smoke. And he was furious that I wasn't letting him go. And I just sort of turned away while they were putting the needles in. And then I turned back around and he said something [00:40:00] else to me. And he just said, and he just smiled as though the previous conversation about cigarettes had never happened.

And it was, and I sat there thinking, did I just imagine that he wanted to go out because he almost pretended as though he, you know, it was all okay. I would come back, friends and my father took me to chemo, had different friends who took me. So just in a typical day, I would then come back feeling quite sick and he would have made a pot of tea and done some fancy drawings on the blackboard.

Okay, maybe lit a fire. I remember once, because when you come back after chemo, you're very hungry. And you're hungry to start with. And I had made myself some food to go into the oven because he could never do cook anything other than pasta. And I didn't want pasta, but I was something to go into the oven because you just want bland food, [00:41:00] like school dinners, kind of food.

And I sat there for 45 minutes. And I said, is it not hot yet? And he hadn't switched the oven on. He said, well, how do I know how to switch an oven on? How do I know? You didn't, you've never shown me how this works. Wait, then what happens is the chemo starts to take effect. So then you go to bed. And he said, I'll sleep in the spare room because it's, you know, it's better for you if you just deal with this.

And he, because he wanted to finish watching his Netflix series. That the clash of the drugs and the, you know, the poison in your system fighting with the anti nausea drugs was like a pain you can't even begin to imagine how it's like food poisoning at its worst and I would be crying out and he would be irritated and would come in and rather than just hold me, he would [00:42:00] say, well, just explain to me what's wrong with you and what it is that you need.

Yeah. And you can't, you can't, you know, explain anything it's it's so you feel so lonely when all you want is somebody just to sit there and hold your hand and look after you. And I don't mean look after you because you don't expect them to have to do anything. 

Brad Minus: I've told us on a couple of episodes, but I haven't had cancer myself, but I've been around, kids, you know, cancer kids.

I coached for, the lymphoma leukemia society for years. I've done, raised a lot of money for, the children's cancer center, which happens to have, an office here in Tampa. So yeah, I've been around it. I know what that looks like. Both my parents have had some form of cancer.

My mom had breast cancer. Been around it and understand it. But just the fact like that right there that [00:43:00] had didn't have the empathy.

Martina Grupo: No, no, there was, there was, but then I would work, then I would work because I would still be teaching in a school or I'd be sending them, you know, and that was okay, but he wasn't doing anything, but he, he was allowing me and I, oh, and this makes me so angry because with myself was, I felt so bad because he wasn't going back to Italy.

So I would find the money to send him back so he could have a few days with his friends. I know, but you must understand that when you're in a narcissistic relationship, they play it in such a way that you feel guilty for everything. It doesn't matter how it's turned around, but they manipulate every kind [00:44:00] of situation 

and you're thinking, God, yeah, you did do that and you have done that, or, I'm here on time. I'm here with you. And if that doesn't work, they turn it around to say, well, you're not capable of loving anybody where you're not capable of being in a relationship where you would rather be on your own, or you would rather be in control.

And I'd be. Thinking, I don't want to be in control. I've never wanted to be in control. I want somebody to be in control of me, which ironically it was. But I wanted it in terms of, look, babe, we're going on holiday. Yay! And you've organized everything. Do you know in 11 years, he never once took me out for dinner.

Brad Minus: Yeah, that's, you talking to me about it and you know, you and I have just met, but I connect with people pretty fast and I'm getting, yeah, you're making me feel it. So job well done. You've been able to explain it in a way that is [00:45:00] pissing me off.

You know, and if that's what you're going for, cause I can't, that's not a man to me. No, I mean, that is not a man. That is a mouse. And to live off of somebody else and not make your own way in the world. That's a 

Martina Grupo: parasite. 

Brad Minus: Yeah. My parents live about 40 minutes from me right now 

and my dad and I just had an argument because he wants to buy me a new grill. Like where you can barbecue. Cause mine was, torn apart during the last hurricane that we had here. And he wants to let me grow. And I'm like, you don't need to, he's on a fixed income and the whole bit.

And my parents aren't fixed income. Not that they're, they're very, very, you know, Middle class, you know, this is not something that he can't afford. It's very, very simple, but we get into a disagreement. Like you don't, you bought, you know, you don't have to buy me this, but I want to.

And it wasn't until I realized how much joy. He was going to get 

Martina Grupo: from buying this 

Brad Minus: for me. Right. That I turned around and said, okay, you know what I mean? And he's like, you know, I'm like, yeah, I can buy my own damn grill. [00:46:00] You know what I mean? It's kind of like that thing.

But then when I realized that, no, he's like, and then, then he calls me and he goes, well, I'm looking at this one. Hey, take a look at this one. Do you like this one? Did you see, it's got the second burner over here. And you could just feel it coming out of his thing. And I'm like, oh my God, he's actually, he's getting joy out of knowing that I'm going to get this grill.

You know, not that he's not going to get a piece of it because, you know, I'm going to cook him a steak once in a while. Of course, but you know what I mean? And I didn't realize that. And the fact that this man was watching you go through pain and meanwhile, you're bringing home the bacon as we call it here in the States.

Martina Grupo: But no 

Brad Minus: idea. 

Martina Grupo: So there's a cycle of abuse. Okay. So it starts off with, the love bombing, which is what they do. Okay, so they're fully on into you and they hold you up here and you're the best thing that's ever happened to them. And, you know, they're the best thing that's ever happened to you.

Then you go to the next stage. Now, the next stage is really subtle and it's called the devalue stage. And this is where everything that you do [00:47:00] is slowly taken apart. Bit by bit and always with that really precious, loving smile that they present. So I would go running in and saying, Oh my God, I've booked this holiday.

It's going to be fantastic. You know, we're to go here and look, we can get a week in Italy, Oh, what time's the flight? Oh, well, then we need to get to the airport. So, that kind of cancels out the first day. Then we've got to be cleaning up and stuff, and then we've got to get back there.

So, really, a week's holiday, it's only five days. The holiday that I have booked, I have taken time out, that I am trying to make it for both of us, has suddenly become, it's okay. And should I say, Oh, I don't know that there's so many different examples, but it's when, yeah, so you've got the devalue stage.

So gradually I'm being taken down bit by bit. I like putting [00:48:00] makeup on like an eyeliner that would go slightly up there. And. He would come along and go like this and wipe off the side of my face and say, Oh, you've got, you've got liner there or something.

Or, Oh, you're wearing that dress again.

Yeah. So all of this, it's a form of making you feel less than you are. So you keep trying. to be better, to do better, to be, and it can be incredibly nasty, incredibly nasty. At its worst, I was driven to do something that I am so ashamed of. Okay, I slapped him. He said something so awful to me once, on more than one occasion.

And that was his green light to act as though I was physically abusing him. So all six foot four of him, he would back off into a corner going, get [00:49:00] your hands down, get your hands away from me. So I, and because all of this was in Italian, so that's in a different language. So I was frightened of myself.

So I would go and hide in the bathroom because I was like, what, what am I becoming? I'm becoming this awful person. And of course, it's almost like a scene from The Shining. He'd be on the other side knocking on the door because I was no good to him hiding in a bathroom. He wanted me out, angry, hysterical.

He wanted me to be railing at him so he could then play the victim.

It's not just bad behavior. It's the takedown of somebody. 

Brad Minus: And do you think, because the way that you're describing it, it sounds like it is inbred and it's like an inbred plot for him.

Like it's plotted, but it's not [00:50:00] conscious, you know, he's not going, the way that you describe it, it's so fast, so quick that he's, you know, like, all right, Hey hun, we're going on this trip. We're landing in Barcelona.

Then we're going to jump on this. We're going to end up in Florence and then we're going to do this, and then he said, you know, and then it's automatic, right? Oh, well, wait, what time are we leaving? Oh, we're not leaving until noon. Well, that, that cancels out the first day.

They know, but that's great, babe. No, no, no problem. Oh, so really, you're not talking about seven days. You're talking about five, right? That's not like, okay, well, listen, I'm gonna make sure that she understands that this is not seven days. 

I'm gonna make sure she understands that it's only five days. You know what I mean? 

Martina Grupo: No, I really 

Brad Minus: Do you think it's something that's kind of inbred? You know, it's just kind of like, Oh, 

Martina Grupo: So if I then said to him exactly what you said and be like, Oh my God, I've just gone. If I just reacted normally and went, I've just, I've just gone and spent time doing this.

He'd be like, I'm literally just pointing this out for both of us. And so straight away, you've got, remember in the background of all of these [00:51:00] peaks, you know, when it becomes really nasty. is a push and a pull situation. So he's pulling you towards him and then pushing me away, pulling me towards him and pushing me away.

So my head is like a ball of confusion. It is like walking in a hall of mirrors. You do not know where the next thing is going to come from. You know, I mean, it's in, it's, it's in the book that I wrote. Oh my God, him learning English. He never learned particularly more than enough to just get by. Four years, four years, you can imagine.

And I'm an English teacher, you know, and he made it about, oh my God, you're so bossy. You just want to control me, you know, just give me some time. And he had my friends on his side. 

Brad Minus: No, no, no. He manipulated them as well. 

Martina Grupo: Yeah. So we had people where, where they would, I would go [00:52:00] to correct something that he had for the amazing most time, you know, sorry, that's Italian for the 11th billionth time.

He had said this thing wrong and I was correcting him. And in a, at a dinner party, he'd be like,

see now. And then he'd speak in Italian. He'd be like, I can't speak anymore. He said, you've just blocked me. I can't, you know, and everybody around the table would look at me going, Martina, you're so controlling, turned it all around. Brilliant. It's, it's bloody genius the way they do it. You can't fault them for how they do it, but no, I'm sorry.

Brad Minus: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I get it. But again, I'm just wondering, I mean, this is the way they live their lives. Do you think that, I mean, this was conscious from the first, from the get 

Martina Grupo: I think this was happening when we were together in [00:53:00] our twenties. But when you're in your twenties, you are all this is all great.

You don't understand it. And it's all everybody's everybody's having a bit of a party lifestyle. So it doesn't really matter. But as you get older, all of us want some sort of stability. You want a little bit more peace. You don't understand why everything is. wrong. You know, you don't understand. I, I wanted boring.

I wanted a husband I could rely on. And the only person I was able to rely on was myself while at the same time as protecting him from any criticism that was coming in because God knows people were starting to question how come he hasn't got a job? Why hasn't he got a job? Why isn't he doing this? And Then we moved back to Italy after cancer.

I stupidly married the book, didn't I? My friend who I'm staying with at the moment here in England still remembers when she came around to see me [00:54:00] and I said, I don't want to get married. I'm doing this for him. I didn't didn't want to get married. Pretty sure he slept with somebody else on our wedding day as well.

Brad Minus: Oh, my God. Yeah. Geez, that's horrible. You seen that? There's a video running around the internet where, they're getting married and right before, you know, he, the, the, 

Martina Grupo: have 

Brad Minus: you seen it where the groom sits there and he's like, well, I love you so much.

He says, and just to show, and I really can't put it into words. So let me show you. And he puts up the video of her going into the closet with, his best man. Okay. There's several of those around, but you know 

Martina Grupo: I don't think that makes them any better.

I don't agree with anybody sleeping with anybody else, but you know, don't do that. Like do something a little bit more dignified. You know, I get that you're angry, but that's involving everybody else and it's not, you [00:55:00] know, be a little bit classier. 

Brad Minus: No, no, I get it.

I get it, you know, 'cause the rest of us cheer 'em on. But you know, I know, 

Martina Grupo: I get it. I do understand it's, 

Brad Minus: you know, the first, and, we don't know that, that wasn't made for the to be a video. Right. We don't know that it could have been that, you know, there's another one out there where the guy had, the guy had pictures.

Taped underneath. Yes. 

Martina Grupo: I heard about 

Brad Minus: and he actually got it. He did go through with the marriage. 

Martina Grupo: I know. 

Brad Minus: And when he went up to do his speech, he's like, by the way, I've got presents for all of you, you know, holders. There's an envelope stuck to all of your bottoms.

And it was pictures of her with, do you know, 

Martina Grupo: when I left, 

Brad Minus: I want to know about that, 

Martina Grupo: well, yeah, I mean, he left me on my own more and more. I mean, I think he had affairs left, right and center, but because I trusted him so much, I didn't think this was happening. He left me on my own for the entire time of COVID.

I was teaching in a private school up in the north of Italy and he said, Oh, it's better if I'm down by the beach. It's going to be better for [00:56:00] me. And he was having an affair with somebody else. Oh my God. I don't think there's anybody that he hasn't been with. And I, it got to the stage, I think after my dad died unexpectedly in 2020.

and I was grief stricken and after about three or four months, he just said to me, everybody's parents die.

And I think slowly it was starting to, to make, but none of, none of the thing about narcissism or any of that, none of that was, was, was apparent to me. None of, I didn't know about any of that. So it's a weird, weird life. None of that was particularly apparent to me. And so it wasn't until just before I left him, that I was aware of what he was because a friend of mine said to me, because I was walking along the beach with this dog and I was saying, you know, with my, with our dog and [00:57:00] my dog and I, and I just going round and round in my head, what is this?

Why is he away? And nothing made sense. And then a really good friend of mine had seen me at Christmas and was very, very worried about me. And she said, can you just research it, please? just research narcissism. And I was, and then she told me a few of the traits, but when you're in a narcissistic relationship, what you don't do is say to somebody else, yes, you are with a narcissist.

What you do is you say to them, I'm not sure. Just see if he has any of these traits and then that's when, because they almost, it's like, you know, it's almost like an alcoholic has to make that realization by themselves and accept what they are in order to progress further, you need to see. Well, when I started researching it, oh my God, I think there was several occasions I threw the phone across the room.

It was like reading his biography. [00:58:00] He was so textbook, so textbook, everything, everything. It was all of a sudden, everything slotted into place. I was like, that's why, that's why. And the really awful thing is still happening. There's still slotting into place, even now, two and a half years later, you know, nearly three years later, it's still happening where I'm saying, Oh my God.

Yeah, that's why that friend doesn't talk to me anymore because they had a fling, you know, or that's why he didn't want video cameras outside of the beach house because I'd be able to see him going in and out with somebody else, you know, 

Brad Minus: that is so I praise your friend. Because of the way that she pulled that off and you mentioned that too.

And that's a huge lesson right there. Is that you don't tell them that, right? We see this all over. Hey, you know what? I saw your, I saw your, you know, I saw your husband with somebody else. [00:59:00] No, you didn't power bar. You know what I mean? 

Martina Grupo: Yeah. 

Brad Minus: I was reading this story about this and now I've started to think about it.

I might have that issue 

Martina Grupo: and 

Brad Minus: that would lead that other person to say, well, wait a second. Those things are happening to me too. Instead of. 

You want them to figure that out for themselves. Just point them in the right direction. 

Martina Grupo: Exactly. And do you know the other really weird thing is, when I started reading up about it, I said, is it me? Am I a narcissist? Oh, my God, you know, have I developed some of these traits and you start to look inwardly I had therapy for 11 months because she recommended that this friend of mine and she said to me, you know, you will need to talk it through with somebody and the therapist was amazing and she said to me, if you're asking yourself that question, you've already got the answer.

Because no narcissist will say, am I a narcissist? 

Brad Minus: Wow. [01:00:00] Okay. So I'm super glad that you said that because as you're talking about all the stories of you and the narc, inside my head, I'm going, man, did I only show any of those kinds of terms?

I'm like, maybe, oh God, wait, there was that one time. I'm literally, that's kind of going on in the back of my head as we're speaking. And I'm like, I don't want to be a narcissist. Let me think. Oh, no, no, no. Okay. I think I'm good. 

Martina Grupo: It's really difficult because you're so worried that there might be something in you that has made me accept that kind of treatment and that was, from when I was very small, I've been conditioned to always put everybody else first and to cover up cracks.

And that's where this has all come from. And it's built up over relationships and not having any boundaries in place. That's the worst thing of all, you know, when you don't have boundaries in place, gosh, I've lost so many people along the way since I've put those boundaries in place.

But, you know, then I'm better off without them, aren't I, [01:01:00] really? 

Brad Minus: I can't imagine what you went through, but I think that it's something that everybody should be looking at, you know, just double check, especially if you feel if there's anything going on with a relationship that you might have or somebody might have, it might be worth, getting into and your book, Hello Flower.

A real life story of narcissistic love and invisible abuse, that's an excellent way of describing it. I think, should take a look at this and, and read. You know, it should be reading your story and, it's available on Amazon and I will make sure that there is a link in the show notes, and make sure that they have a link to your sub stack.

Martina Grupo: Oh, and I'm also on Instagram. Martina Grupo on Instagram. 

Brad Minus: So tell me about Felice Phineas. 

Martina Grupo: Well, actually I'm thinking of changing the name of that. It's [01:02:00] Felicia Phineas, which means, happy Phoenix.

Because I did rise again. 

Brad Minus: Yeah. I love that. Outstanding. 

Martina Grupo: I was born again. The moment I left, it took a long, long time, but I, yeah. 

Brad Minus: Well, it didn't take that long. We're only in 2024. And you finally got out of there, what, 2021, 

Martina Grupo: 2022, 

Brad Minus: 2022, it hasn't been that long, but I imagine those two years probably felt like forever.

Martina Grupo: Yeah, I think the first year was, I was just in shock, but you know, now, I mean, the first thing that you do, which is like, Oh, really, I can do this is put yourself first. That's a game changer. And then there was other that I love doing, which was things like, buying fake vintage t shirts and things that he always said that they were really cheap or [01:03:00] wearing what I wanted to wear, doing what I wanted to do, having the music up loud, throwing stuff into my trolley, however I wanted in the supermarket without somebody slapping my hands away and saying, Oh, you just make such a mess of it all of the time and rearranging it.

You know, stuff like that being me again was just so cool. It really was. I've traveled more. The first last year I spent the whole of the summer, like about four or five months renting out my place, renting out the spare room in my house, B and B. And I was just, getting as many guests as I could and getting all five star reviews and treating them really, really well and everything else.

And I saved all of that money because I wanted to go traveling at Christmas. And I went traveling around Vietnam and Southeast Asia and Cambodia and all the places that I've wanted to visit since I was a kid, but I had [01:04:00] put that on hold for him, and while traveling alone was great.

I would love to meet somebody and share that. But you know, that will happen to me one day as well. I will, somebody will come along. I don't know when, I don't know how or where, but I think I need to get the hell out of Italy.

Brad Minus: Yeah, do you think that now that you've got this You've actually done the research along with writing the book and understanding some of the signs that if you met somebody and fell head over heels, that this could possibly happen again.

Martina Grupo: No, because I don't think I would meet somebody and fall head over heels. I think I would want to get to know somebody and be sure of that person and become friends with [01:05:00] them first, you know, have things in common. And I would want to be sure that that person had their own lifestyle and their own hobbies and work and things like that.

Brad Minus: Well, you have a lot of friends, that have different lives than you whatever the gender or sex is, just flip it over. So you said you would absolutely want to be friends with this person first.

So I would think that if you take some of your friends and you think about the way you connect with them, And add a romantic component to it, you probably have, 

Martina Grupo: think I'm very scared of trusting myself because I haven't been terribly good so far. So I think there's a big fear factor in it, but I think, yeah, but you know.

It's not hopeless. Put it that way. 

Brad Minus: No. You want to listen to something? 

Martina Grupo: I 

Brad Minus: think it's a 

Martina Grupo: catch 

Brad Minus: I think so too. You've got a drive in you. You've got this drive and it's not only to help people, but you [01:06:00] find a way to enjoy life and add the financial component, you know, and figuring things out the way that you were able to, move coffee around and it was a win and you found the win win situation, 

you 

know, you were able to get paid.

The community was able to get schools and the customers were able to get really good coffee. So I mean, this was a win-win, win all the way around. Everybody won on that. So you have, that component there that's not, that's, you know, not everybody has, that talent, I'm sure that's, 

huge. And I read, you know, I've read some of your work, so the rest of you, you know, martinagrupo. substack. com, you go over to the HappyPhoenix or FeliceVenice. 

Martina Grupo: There he is. 

Brad Minus: Hey, you know, and read some of her work because it's really good, but definitely you gotta, pick up Hello Flower.

You know, you've got to pick that up and I'll have that in the show notes. 

Martina Grupo: I also add that if anybody is, going through [01:07:00] anything like this and wants to send me a message, I will be open to responding. 

Brad Minus: Sliding her to her DMS on Instagram. 

Martina Grupo: I meant about narcissistic abuse is what I 

Brad Minus: I know, I know. Sliding her DMS on Instagram. I want to talk about some narcissism and then figure it out from there. Is there a contact component to it? 

Martina Grupo: I'll send you the link. So that anybody that can see for the show notes, that anybody You know, you can just is there a contact?

Yes, there is at the bottom. You can add a message and then yeah, and I can. 

Brad Minus: Yeah, I see it. Okay. So you can do that on sub stack as well. I'd like to talk to her about your experiences and how she might be able to, help if you even have an inkling.

It sounds like, Martina's got enough experience that she can at least point you in the right direction. So, but no, Hey, this has been fantastic. I hope you were able to sell your home in Italy and find a place for you to call home and then travel to your heart's content.

If you ever want to go [01:08:00] someplace boring, like Disney world, please reach out. Let me know. I'm an hour and 15 minutes away. I will meet you for dinner or for lunch or for breakfast to that. You better believe it. And yeah, same here. So if you end up coming over here to the States, I'm starting to work my day job.

I'm starting to work for an international law firm. So who knows what that's going to do for me? So I might be finding myself off. 

Martina Grupo: Come over to Italy then. Yeah, exactly. 

Brad Minus: I'm, well unless you end up back in the uk. 

Martina Grupo: Well, I'm just saying that if you happen to come over, I hope I sell my place before then, but yeah, that would be amazing.

Well, we're gonna stay in touch, I think. 

Brad Minus: Absolutely. No, we're not gonna let this, No, you were, I am totally, yeah, no, we need to say we will stay in touch. Yeah. So, but as far as the rest of you goes, all that information is going to be in the show notes, links and, Instagram and the website, the Amazon, the Amazon link, that's all going to be in the show notes.

Take a look at that again. It's called hello [01:09:00] flower. A real life story of narcissistic love and invisible abuse. So we check that out on wherever you are on, on Amazon, whether it's Amazon UK, a U USA, you'll find it there and pick it up and read the story. If you're watching on YouTube, please go ahead and hit that like and subscribe and hit that notification bell.

So you always know when we're dropping a new episode, if you're on Apple or on Spotify, please go ahead and leave a review. And I don't even care if it's a good review because the bad reviews just tell me how much that I can help. You can help me evolve this podcast and make it better for everybody. So let me know.

Thank you so much. This has been an amazing adventure, and we really appreciate you sharing your journey with us. And for the rest of you, we will see you in the next one.